Twister

2013

ZENITH STOL CH750 EDITION 2

PRICE NEGOTIABLE

Built in Arizona by Marv Vanderpool, winner of at least two best-of-show aircraft--he built a Lancair before this one. 60 hrs TT. Dual-stick option, steam gauges, Mode C, Icom com. Continental IO-240 engine. Unpainted. Some final finishing needed on custom cowl (paint prep). 619-683-2432.

THANK y'all for the goldmine of info on going to AK!

I still don't have my Kitfox yet, but my plan is to trailer it in an enclosed trailer. Just talked to the factory--the trailer has to be 8.5 wide. Anyone know where I can get one built strong without being robbed?

I guess you'd say this is a big item on my "bucket" list too. I'll read and re-read all the comment before I ask any questions, but will welcome additional commentary and a report of how the trip actually went for the dad/son trip.

I have a 1990 Mitsubishi Fuso FG (a 3-ton dual-wheel truck with a 109" wheelbase and a 3.3 liter turbo diesel with a custom "camper" attached to the frame) as a tow vehicle. It also has an 8-ton winch and a roof rack integrated with the custom bumper by Chappelle I'm going to rent a trailer to test the fuel consumption; it gets 14-15 mpg without the trailer, but I don't know what penalty the trailer will exact. Does anyone in the unfrozen north know how the Fuso has worked up there? Back east it's used for tiny dump trucks and snowplows.

Thanks again!

I'm selling my "old" rig, a 2006 Outfitter Apex 9.5 with lots of extras and a 2005 F250 HD XLT Super-Duty FX Off-Road 4x4 with Bilstein/Helwig suspension (2" lift) and air-suspension bags with compressor and tank with in-cab controls to finance my aircraft. I'll pay a $100 finder's fee to anyone who sends me the buyer.

I did talk with the seller a few times--very nice guy--but decided against it. Maybe he still has it. If you can't find his number I may still have it somewhere.

I had a nice long talk with the Kitfox factory today, and it looks like I'm headed in the direction of a KF4 with a 912 engine--if I can find one basic enough to fit my "budget." I would like to get a 5 if I can afford it. I'm now pretty much confining my search in that direction, but I'll still appreciate comments and suggestions.

The C-54 was a DC4...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_C-54_Skymaster

The C-118 was a DC6..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-118

Thanks . . . sounds right to me.

Apparently, there are only five gas stations that sell alcohol-free gas in CA.

I rode in the troop seats of what I thought was a C-54 from Madrid to Diabakur (sp?) Turkey in 1962 (or 3?) in which we lost the two starboard engines halfway between Ankara and Diabakur and had to return to Ankara for a replacement, so I was searching the 'net and am now uncertain of the difference between the -54 and the -118. Can anyone straighten me out?

The actual weight gain or savings is not really that much in the long run.

To me, it was more important on my mission. Are you planning on flying airport to airport and keeping it in the garage or hangar?? If so, the light fabric is all you will ever need.

Are you planning on dragging the wing tips through the trees and the tail throught the brush on tiny little rock and gravel strips and keeping the plane out in the weather? If so, Meduim is the clear choice.

I used medium on mine and dont regret it! 3 yrs ago when flying off skis, a buddy flying his MK IV that was covered in the light fabric landed next to me in some deep snow that had about 3/8" of nasty ice on top of the snow. His fuse and lower rudder got torn up pretty good and had to be taped up before we could fly out of there and mine only had a little bit of paint rubbed off it.

What kind of tape did y'all use? My Viet Nam "conflict" buddy says they had some super-sticky, super-strong tape there then that was not authorized but kept a lot of shot-up planes in the air and saved a lot of lives.

Size, weight, effect, if any, on cg, and how much does it improve ground-handling?

Y'all:

I hope I haven't stretched the "Specifications and Modifications" thread too much and frayed your patience. On the other hand, I'm still trying to find out the dimensions/specifications of the various models of folding-wing aircraft, particularly the Kitfox, and gain a better understanding of the pros and cons of things like wing type and length, stretched fuselages (better handling as well as cg aft for heavier engines and any problems?), the type of engines, gear, etc. to help me in specifying "my" airplane. I must thank all who have answered some of my newbie questions, and if I have repeated myself it doesn't mean that I didn't read your answer, it means that I've been trying to absorb a lot and have simply forgotten some things. And then there's the matter of refining my fledgling "knowledge" of the subject. Most of y'all have forgotten more than I'll ever know, and I know how hard it is to believe that somebody like me could possibly be that ignorant.

Anyway, thanks again to everybody!

I'm gonna look for a topic on training, and if I can't find one, start one. I've decided that I'm going to seek out the best possible training, but I would like to buy "my" airplane first and get trained in it, but would like at least to get some dual in any LSA of the Kitfox type as soon as possible, as close to home as possible (I'm in San Diego CA; the official flight school for Kitfox is in Idaho, where I still plan to go for fully maturing my flying skills). (Hope to see you on that topic soon.)

I'll try harder to keep my questions here closer to the topic!

I gather that you may have looked at the KF1 for sale? If you are not buying it, then someone else is looking - you could give the phone number and location where I had posted it in "For Sale".

ED in MO

Ed, maybe I misinterpreted you, but I thought you said to avoid the 2-cycles. That one had a gray-head. I've had several interruptions to my life and travel plans; we had to take a very abbreviated trip, but the doc has just cleared me of the blood disorder he thought I had; seems it's "only" too many red blood cells, and I get a re-check in 6 months. I may get away on another trip, and if that one's still for sale, have a look at it. There's another guy in that part of the country who is willing to show me his Kitfox; I'd like to look at the different models. I'd need to know who was willing and how to find them.

Thanks again.

Anybody else want to comment about cabin room differences between the models?

Update (of sorts). I'm still searching for the perfect bird for me, and while I doubt that it actually exists, I'm still confused about a lot of stuff. Right now, I would HOPE I could find a KF5 (mainly for shoulder room) I could afford--so many of them are sooo tricked out (I want a real basic panel in a first-rate airframe and engine) that the price is way above my budget. I've been convinced by the bulk of experts that the 912S is the best (only?) way to go, and that tricycle gear is better, even for rough field operations (I'm not so sure I agree with this one, but am open to good reasoning in support of the nose gear position. I do agree, however, that the difference in ground handling might be a worthwhile tradeoff.)

Since I don't know much of anything about Kitfoxes yet (even though I airport bummed a lot on a recent trip, I still haven't seen more than one Kitfox (years ago, and I think it was a KF1).

Is the 5 the only wider one? Are the 1's through the 4's all the same width?

Thanks for any comment.

How about the lower 48?

I don't think it's possible to have an airplane that fits every aspect of your mission perfectly. This is why those who are lucky enough to afford it have two or three. The best you can hope for is something that works well for you MOST of the time. The Rans, Highlanders, and newer Kitfoxes are all amazing airplanes that evolved from Dean Wilson's original design in the early 80's. Their price has followed the evolution accordingly though. Just a bare bones Kit and Rotax 912S for any those is going to be around $50K and then you still have to build it!

I sent you a Private message with some other info as well.

Joey

I agree that there's no one plane that will fit my mission perfectly. I've vacillated a lot due to my ignorance and fighting my way up the learning curve, but here's what I now think I want (it may be out of my price range, but I'm looking for a flying one anyway): Anything with folding wings that can be handled by one old crip of a man (Kitfox?) with a 912 that will get off the ground reasonably short with a good rate of climb and a decent service ceiling. I do not need a lot of instruments and bells and whistles--I'm looking for something really basic. I just now heard about the KF-4 -1050 and -1200 versions. Do you/y'all have any websites to recommend? I must be doing something wrong in my searching . . .

LOTSA HAPPINESS!

Ed, please forgive me if this question has been asked and answered: What is it about the Jabiru other than the prop, and what is it about the prop that is not good? Also, does the RANS have folding wings and what would it cost me to buy a flying one? What should I replace the Jab with on the Avid 4?

The jab is direct drive and it's hard to get a prop on there big enough to make the thrust a gear rotax engine will. The Rans wing will fold but not without a bunch of work compared to a Kitfox/Avid cables must disconnected ect ect. We just had a member who flew a Kitfox I for years behind a 532. He upgraded to Jab and went back to a Blue Head 582. On the total flip side the FWF on my airplane came from a guy who upgraded to a Jab. He went through two motors and a ton of prop set ups but finally found one that he says will out perform a 582 in every way and has flown a bunch behind it. If I was to spent that kind of money I'd skip straight a 912.

Thanks once again, Ed! This is a big step toward avoiding the very kind of trap you cite--spending a lot of money on a ship that isn't quite up to the job, then dumping a lot more cash into it to bring it up to snuff. I'd rather shop longer, draw to an inside straight, as it were, than to get into that cash-graveyard-spiral. I'm thinking I should just wait until an Avid or a Kitfox (preferably a roomier version--the older ones make me claustrophobic) comes along with a Riblett wing (or a STOL wing?) with a 582 comes along with the wide gear (tall or short?) Do I take it that your airplane has a Jab with some magical prop that will outperform a 582? My present budget is about 20K, but when I sell my expedition-type truck camper, I should be able to kick that up to about 30K. I would rather spend more up front and wait for a cream-puff that is purrfeckt than impatiently blow a lesser amount on something that will require a bunch of modification (and even more money?). I'd like to buy sooner, but it looks like I may have to wait for the EAA fly-in to make up my mind on my specs (or get even more confused?). I don't, however, require a lot of bells and whistles--I'm willing to settle for a basic panel; I'd rather put my money into the actual airplane.

Speaking of disconnecting cables, etc., etc., does that mean fuel lines too? The USAF version of the 172 had "break-away" fuel lines (some kind of automatically closing valve) at the wing root so that if you elected to let the wings take up some of the energy in a forced landing by going between two trees with a lower chance of burning.

You might find ONE on here who likes the Jab engine - there have been problems with them and the prop is too small, IMO.

NOW, I WOULD BE BANNED ON ANY OTHER SITE, BUT MAY BE PUT ON THE "HIT LIST" FOR THE FOLLOWING:

I dont know where you are located, but I would like to hear that you checked out a RANS, at Hays, Kansas.

They are a neat little bird, and easy to build - and no danged flaperons - just standard wings. The seats are the most comfortable I have ever sat in - you can get tandem or side-by-side seating.

They even have an option of a "lace-on, already finished", fuselage covering, so you dont even have to paint.

IF I had not been led down this long Kitfox road, I would have been flying a RANS years ago.

ED in MO

P.S. You can get the RANS with a nose wheel too - why fight a tailwheel? (Now I know I'm in deep doo-doo!)

AND, YES, I will put a tri-gear anywhere you can put a tail-dragger - they both become 2-wheelers the second you hold brakes and open the throttle. (now that should start a ruckus!) BUT, I do wonder why I have to replace so many tail skids?

Ed, please forgive me if this question has been asked and answered: What is it about the Jabiru other than the prop, and what is it about the prop that is not good? Also, does the RANS have folding wings and what would it cost me to buy a flying one? What should I replace the Jab with on the Avid 4?

The jab is direct drive and it's hard to get a prop on there big enough to make the thrust a gear rotax engine will. The Rans wing will fold but not without a bunch of work compared to a Kitfox/Avid cables must disconnected ect ect. We just had a member who flew a Kitfox I for years behind a 532. He upgraded to Jab and went back to a Blue Head 582. On the total flip side the FWF on my airplane came from a guy who upgraded to a Jab. He went through two motors and a ton of prop set ups but finally found one that he says will out perform a 582 in every way and has flown a bunch behind it. If I was to spent that kind of money I'd skip straight a 912.

I didn't think I'd have this much fun until I got into the air again, so folks, hear this: Even if I don't get into the air again, I've had a good time reading all these messages. The more I hear, the more I want to know. Y'all are a very generous bunch, and it's a pleasure to "know" you.

But the more I know, the more I know what I don't know; I'm still dripping with ignorance--hell, I never heard of a "dead-stick takeoff" before, and I still don't know what it is.

And all these different airplanes make me question whether or not I'm even close to being ready to take the leap. Like the difference between Avids, Kitfoxes, Highlanders, Airdales, Zeniths, Murphys, some other Canadian bush planes, and the various models, powerplants, wings, gear, (turbocharged Rotaxes, yet?) and on and on has me in a whirl of confusion. I guess I'll get there eventually, but I only want to buy one airplane--and I want it to be the right one for me.

True, I would like to get by for $15 or 20K, but I'd rather wait a bit longer and get the bird that suits me to a T. I will have to stick to the sport pilot category, and I'm still stuck on the folding wing option, but other than that, I'm still open to suggestions, links, and references about what you folks who have done this a long time think my specifications (Manufacturer, wing type, gear type, engine, and performance etc.) ought to be.

Thanks again for all your responses.

I'd be interested in anything y'all have to say about this video:

Simplest - and least messy - and cheapest - Just use 9460. You can rivet or not, but that would make a stronger joint. Different kinds of fiberglas epoxy dont mix or adhere to each other. I would not use Bondo.

ED in MO

P.S. I still like the idea of putting the rubber over the top of the flange to make a better seal to WS.

Ed, what kind of epoxy (if any) would you put into a lightweight emergency repair kit? What do you think of JB Weld?

Speaking of emergency repair kits, what do you suggest? I will be both towing and flying, so the one in the tow vehicle can be pretty big, but the one in the aircraft is another story. Duct tape and wire? What kind? A buddy of mine says they had a special kind of "duct" tape in the Army that they patched holes with in Viet Nam. Unauthorized repairs, of course, but the stuff was extra-tough and extra-sticky.

Twister welcome to the Forum! I'll do my best at answering your questions. First and foremost a lot of your questions are opinion based and not fully factual. My answers my very well differ entirely from say Larry's who will tell you that 2 strokes are deathtraps J/K Larry!!

1. I haven't met anyone yet who was happy with standard length speed wings. The main difference is speed wings have a flat bottom and STOL wings are undercambered. The speed wing can be lengthened though and I hear that helps alot. If your wanting to get in and out short look for a STOL wing. I am not a huge fan of slats. A guy in Australia has a Zenith 701 that he removed the slats and added VG's with not much difference in performance. VG's and their results is a highly debateable topic on these high lift slow flying wings.

1A. Most STOL airplanes glide like a rock. An old book titled "How to fly a Kitfox" compares these airplanes to a heavy Cessna by way of a Badminton Birdie compared to a Tennis Ball. They are light and draggy like a birdie. and when the fan quits blowing you had better point the nose at the ground like NOW or you will stall. They will decellerate extremely quickly! I lost 3 good friends in the past year and ALL of them were departure engine failures followed by a stall. With that said if you manage your airspeed and glide properly you can set down at around 40-50mph. This is a very surviveable speed no matter what you hit as long as it's controlled and your wings level. I would much rather be in the welded, triagulated chromoly fuse of a Kitfox/Avid than a metal box like a Zenith anyday during a crash situation.

2. There is several options for landing gear that is 10" wider over stock. Makes ground handling a night and day difference. I had 500 landings and 250 hours on the stock gear before I switched. It's just fine but it requires your attention on pavement.

3. The main reason people stretch the fuse is accomodate heavier engines on the nose such as auto conversions or the Rotax 912.

4. If money is no option look for a Rotax 912. They are a bit heavier but a sweet little engine. Some guys have had great luck with Subaru Conversions but they can get heavy if not careful. These airplanes were originally designed very light with a two stroke motor. They evolved from there and gradually got heavier and faster with bigger engines and became more of a well performing cruiser than a true STOL airplane. If you really want to get in and out short you can't hardly beat a 550lb or less early model with a two stroke!!

The downsides that you'll hear about two strokes is fuel burn, low TBO times, and reliability. With that said I love mine and I have flown behind it over some of the most inhospitable terrain the Western US has to offer. If I had an extra 20 grand laying around I would probably go with a 912 but I don't so therefore I fly and enjoy what I have to the fullest.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask more questions.

My 535lb two stroke powered Avid doing what it does best..

Thanks again for your very useful comments. My head is still spinning, but I hope to accumulate enough knowledge to avoid the bigger mistakes.

I've got my eye on an Avid 4 with a speed wing. I wonder if I should swap it out for a STOL wing or a Riblett, and add the wider gear. I'm wondering what this might cost me, as the Riblett is going to cost a fair piece of change, and I would end up with a nice pair of speed wings that I might not be able to sell if other Avid/Fox owners are making the same shift. Lengthening the speed wing seems to be an option, but I don't know how that will affect STOL performance or compare to the Riblett. If I understand correctly, the Riblett doesn't sacrifice much "at the low end" (STOL performance) but adds quite a bit to cruise speed and improves handling (stall characteristics, etc.). While I'd rather build than buy, I'm pretty much forced to buy due to a hitch in my gitalong. Where's the best place to buy the finished Riblett and the wider gear? The only laminar wing I've ever flown was a Cessna 177 years ago.

Thanks again for any comments.

I'm also thinking of putting the wider gear on, and wonder how that would work out financially too. The price on the plane is pretty close to my budget, and I have to think about every angle I can and end up with a plane that suits my needs.

I'm thinking about designing an enclosed trailer if I get my Avid (I'm on a health hold for a week or so until I find out more about my potential for a future), possibly using bladders to cushion it in case of a jolt or a lurch to the side on rough roads. Has anyone tried this?

Do I presume correctly that some trailers have "pockets" for the gear? What kind of tie-down arrangements are best?

Do they fit into a 20' shipping container? Has anyone tried this? I suspect they could be modified rather easily.

What kinds of suspension have been tried?

SKIS? You mean those things that crunch on gravel and smoke on concrete? SNOW? You greedy Alaskans keep most of it - we are lucky to see the grass covered on Christmas!

ROCKS? I have heard of those - hard to find in our pastures, but keeping tailskid on ground until stopped keeps the prop out of most of them.

Jesting, of course - flown both types - just got a very stiff neck from old injuries and would rather look over the nose instead of out the side. Both types have their nich - yes, tail ski is better. Floats dont know which wheel is there.

I am just not a "bi-engine" pilot, but could be someday!

ED in MO

Ed, are both of your Avids tricycle gear? If so, can you tell me a bit more about them? I am concerned with avoiding damaged props from sucking up gravel, etc.

Thanks again.

Twister,

Although you have been given some good airspeed info, I hope you get the manual info from somewhere.

Look at your airspeed indicator - It has to be marked to be legal, and those marks will give you some indication of speeds. I know you were given 60,55,and 50 for approach, and those are fine - Kitfox recommends 65 in pattern until you get used to the plane.

Good Flying,

ED in MO

Again, sounds like good advice. I haven't got a manual, but then I haven't got a plane yet. When I do, I expect I will try to find a big, circular field or at least a wide and long runway for starters. I expect it will take me a good long time to get consistent enough to try narrow roads and the like . . . I want to be truly one with the airplane before I venture out on a real mission, and even then I will look for real airports if there are any in range.

Any comments about this engine? http://www.jabiru.net.au/engines/4-cylinder

If you find another trailer deal like that = PLEASE, let me know.

ED in MO

Speak to me about open vs closed trailers . . . I plan to tow long distances, and road hazards and weather worry me . . .

Yeah, you guys are PURE GOLD to me. One guy who was going to sell me an Avid was going to train me up by first having me master fast taxiing. So tell me more about "fanning" the rudder and proper rudder operation . . .