Rotax 583

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Posted

I have a new Rotax 532 w gear box and prop that came with my kit, i would like to put a 582 on it but would rather just get flying than wait until I can afford one. I see i can pick up a 583 for around 500.00 They claim to have 97 HP why don't we see more of these being used on Avids and Kitfoxes? is this a good alternative or am i better off just going with my 532 until i can afford to go to the 582.

-Robert-

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Posted

Isn't the 583 a single ignition snowmobile engine? Will the gearbox bolt to it without modification?

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Posted

Isn't the 583 a single ignition snowmobile engine? Will the gearbox bolt to it without modification?

From what I've red "yes" and "yes"

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Posted

Oh boy.... Here we go. Yes the 583 is a snowmobile engine. Yes it has single ignition, yes it has RAVE valves, yes it needs a custom exhaust to get anywhere near 97hp, yes it runs great if you put your throttle at 7000 rpm and leave there, yes it's a huge pain in the ass to tune, and yes it has NO midrange. Steve Beatty of Airscrew performance swears by them and will do anything he can to get you to trade your 582 for one. I've known of two guys that had them and both finally ended up with a 582 in the end after lots of money and lots of wasted time trying to get them to run the way they wanted them to.

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Posted

My 1987 model 1 kitfox also came with a new 532.

I had the points ignition switched out for snowmobile ignition and flew it for 14 years and 450 hours.

The 532 with snowmobile ignition idles at a lower RPM and smoother than my 582 due to the ignition retard feature of the snowmobile ignition.

Merle Williams in arizona has experience with the 583.

The 532 never let me down and I would use yours since you have it.

Herman

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Posted

Oh boy.... Here we go. Yes the 583 is a snowmobile engine. Yes it has single ignition, yes it has RAVE valves, yes it needs a custom exhaust to get anywhere near 97hp, yes it runs great if you put your throttle at 7000 rpm and leave there, yes it's a huge pain in the ass to tune, and yes it has NO midrange. Steve Beatty of Airscrew performance swears by them and will do anything he can to get you to trade your 582 for one. I've known of two guys that had them and both finally ended up with a 582 in the end after lots of money and lots of wasted time trying to get them to run the way they wanted them to.

So Joey how do you really feel about it? :lmao:

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Posted

My 1987 model 1 kitfox also came with a new 532.

I had the points ignition switched out for snowmobile ignition and flew it for 14 years and 450 hours.

The 532 with snowmobile ignition idles at a lower RPM and smoother than my 582 due to the ignition retard feature of the snowmobile ignition.

Merle Williams in arizona has experience with the 583.

The 532 never let me down and I would use yours since you have it.

Herman

Thanks for the input guys. I think i will just go with my 532 for now until i can afford what i really want. If I'm not mistaken the exhaust and radiator should be the same for both the 532 and 582 so that will save me a bit when the time comes to.

-Herman- do you remember what ignition it was you put into your 532? this i may be interested in doing.

-Robert-

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Posted

Oh boy.... Here we go. Yes the 583 is a snowmobile engine. Yes it has single ignition, yes it has RAVE valves, yes it needs a custom exhaust to get anywhere near 97hp, yes it runs great if you put your throttle at 7000 rpm and leave there, yes it's a huge pain in the ass to tune, and yes it has NO midrange. Steve Beatty of Airscrew performance swears by them and will do anything he can to get you to trade your 582 for one. I've known of two guys that had them and both finally ended up with a 582 in the end after lots of money and lots of wasted time trying to get them to run the way they wanted them to.

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Posted

My 1987 model 1 kitfox also came with a new 532.

I had the points ignition switched out for snowmobile ignition and flew it for 14 years and 450 hours.

The 532 with snowmobile ignition idles at a lower RPM and smoother than my 582 due to the ignition retard feature of the snowmobile ignition.

Merle Williams in arizona has experience with the 583.

The 532 never let me down and I would use yours since you have it.

Herman

Somewhere in the old posts this discussion has been done - Others had the same bad opinion of the 583, and the 590 or 670 or whatever .

I am still waiting for Leni to get his Artic Cat engine converted with 125 hp or so.

ED in MO

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Posted

WELL C5E whover?

Its more than likely you have never seen let alone flown a Rotax 583 engine ON ANYTHING !, The world is full of people like you , there's even a song (YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ) anyway First of all If you don't think they're all snowmobile engines just ask a Lycoming owner , The Rotax 583 comes off the same assy.line as the 582 and YES there is some different parts used in either , Same bore and stroke , BUT ! Since you haven't flown one of the 583s you don't understand that when the SO-CALLED 582 aircraft engine get to about 6700 RPM it just gives up , WHY ?, OK THE 582 has no advance in the ignition timing , Its just a cheap Ducati duel ignition that fires at .059 BTDC ALL THE TIME ! , where as the 583 engine fires at TDC at start up (NICE SMOOTH IDLE) and advances to .086 BTDC depending on RPM , the 583 has the RAVE system which changes the exhaust port timing according to engine RPM also , this is why the 583 can (IF NEEDED ) be red lined at 7250 at which it has 97 horespower , (BUT) wrongly stated by C5E its not necessary to run the 583 at 7000 RPM ever , if you don't need that extra horsepower :-) OK C5E just for the heck of it ask ANY !! snowmobiler if they would trade their 583 sled engine With Mikuni carbs and Nippon-Dendo ignition for a 582 SO-CALLED AIRCRAFT ENGINE with Ducati ignition and (CONTROLLED AIR LEAK ) oops I mean BING CARBS ?? (I THINK NOT ) Just in case you didn't know there are several hundred Rotax 583 engines flying all over the world in Aircraft , Gyros , Powered Parachutes , Trikes and Hovercraft.

Respectfully Steve Beatty Airscrew Performance , (JUST THE FACTS)

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Posted (edited)

...and there are tens of thousands of 582s that are flying reliably. I know personally of two 583s that caused forced landings for very experienced two stroke operators, and a 670 that almost killed a friend of mine who has near 7000 hours flying and instructing in two-strokes.

And before you shoot your mouth off at me, I have never flown either of these motors and NEVER will. I value my life too much.

That post directed at C5 was anything but respectful, by the way.

Edited by Av8r3400

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Posted

WELL C5E whover?

Its more than likely you have never seen let alone flown a Rotax 583 engine ON ANYTHING !, The world is full of people like you , there's even a song (YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ) anyway First of all If you don't think they're all snowmobile engines just ask a Lycoming owner , The Rotax 583 comes off the same assy.line as the 582 and YES there is some different parts used in either , Same bore and stroke , BUT ! Since you haven't flown one of the 583s you don't understand that when the SO-CALLED 582 aircraft engine get to about 6700 RPM it just gives up , WHY ?, OK THE 582 has no advance in the ignition timing , Its just a cheap Ducati duel ignition that fires at .059 BTDC ALL THE TIME ! , where as the 583 engine fires at TDC at start up (NICE SMOOTH IDLE) and advances to .086 BTDC depending on RPM , the 583 has the RAVE system which changes the exhaust port timing according to engine RPM also , this is why the 583 can (IF NEEDED ) be red lined at 7250 at which it has 97 horespower , (BUT) wrongly stated by C5E its not necessary to run the 583 at 7000 RPM ever , if you don't need that extra horsepower :-/>) OK C5E just for the heck of it ask ANY !! snowmobiler if they would trade their 583 sled engine With Mikuni carbs and Nippon-Dendo ignition for a 582 SO-CALLED AIRCRAFT ENGINE with Ducati ignition and (CONTROLLED AIR LEAK ) oops I mean BING CARBS ?? (I THINK NOT ) Just in case you didn't know there are several hundred Rotax 583 engines flying all over the world in Aircraft , Gyros , Powered Parachutes , Trikes and Hovercraft.

Respectfully Steve Beatty Airscrew Performance , (JUST THE FACTS)

Hey Steve,

The 583 sounds like a great engine. I would like talk with an owner of one and see it and even fly behind it. Can you please put me in touch with some of your customers? Thanks, Bryce

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Posted

Well Steve you just solidified my opinion of you as well as the many others on here who fly behind a Rotax. I also know of several airplanes ("based on facts")that never got out of phase I testing with your engines and had nothing but frustration and bad things to say about you and your business. Based on the fact you dug up a year old post to go off on me tells me you came here wondering what folks thought about you. If you are trying to sell engines , showing up on a forum that has gobs of Rotax powered airplanes and going off on a seasoned member with 15 years flying behind a two stroke and making immature accusations sure as heck isn't the way to do it. I will continue to steer folks clear of airscrew performance every chance I get!!!

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Posted (edited)

...and there are tens of thousands of 582s that are flying reliably. I know personally of two 583s that caused forced landings for very experienced two stroke operators, and a 670 that almost killed a friend of mine who has near 7000 hours flying and instructing in two-strokes.

And before you shoot your mouth off at me, I have never flown either of these motors and NEVER will. I value my life too much.

That post directed at C5 was anything but respectful, by the way.

I dont normally go off on people on this site, but Leni, I am going to make an exception here:

I have been following C5E for a long time now, and know that he has lots of experience flying the 2-stroke in back country, and has posted a lot and benefited this site with his experiences and knowledge.

As far as the newcomer trying to sell an engine that others have had bad experience with: I think you are way out of line and owe C5E an apology.

Just look at the name - AIR SCREW!

ED IN mo

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

I dont normally go off on people on this site, but Leni, I am going to make an exception here:

I have been following C5E for a long time now, and know that he has lots of experience flying the 2-stroke in back country, and has posted a lot and benefited this site with his experiences and knowledge.

As far as the newcomer trying to sell an engine that others have had bad experience with: I think you are way out of line and owe C5E an apology.

Just look at the name - AIR SCREW!

ED IN mo

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Posted

I'am not trying to sell 583 Rotax engines to anybody , I'am just stating the facts , The Rotax 583 engine was one of the longest production engines built by Rotax , its very dependable and in most cases will last longer than the Rotax 582 engine mostly due to the Nippon-Denso ignition , You guy that bad-mouth me and the Rotax 583 engine are not using simple common sense ! The 582 and the 583 are really close in all aspects except for the Ignition system , the RAVE valve variable exhaust port timing , rotary valve and much better Mikuni carbs , that combination doesn't make something as unflyable as you are trying to project them to be . AGAIN , just the facts

GASSITT

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Posted

well I just read all the posts on this one... I dont see what the big fuss is about to be honest. One thing about this forum, like it or leave it, is that we are all entitled to our opinions and all have a voice. If you make a jackass outta yourself, be prepared to be called a jackass and get ridden like a rented mule (or a Tijuana prostitute take your pick) :lol:

I have flown behind and ridden A LOT of 2 strokes. I have had a 582 fail just like I have a 532. I have burned down engines in my sled countless times in my sled trying to get that last little bit of RPM out of them. Some engines get a really bad rap, not because the engine was a shit design that wouldnt run right, but because the parts failed ( rotax 800 and elko rings comes to mind) The engine itself was great, but the ring manufacture sucked balls on a few runs and the rings would flake like a sumbitch and munch the piston n cylinders, but damn did it have some good power and snap between rebuilds!

Ed, the way I see it, Joey kinda started the bad mouth thing in Steve's eyes and Steve was just putting out his .02. Folks, the bad thing about reading a forum is that you cant see the guys face when he is typing.. If you have not noticed I got a warped sense of humor and if I am kinda spouting off I use the :lol: and :lmao: A LOT just so ya know I am laughing as I type... I get a good kick outta a good debate :snack: and have been known to toss a little gas on the fire here and there just so I can eat my popcorn and drink a beer and get a good laugh at the fireworks.. Dont make an internet statement a personal thing! 9 times out of 10 if people were sitting around a camp fire at a fly in having a toddy after a good day of flying, the discussion about the various 2 strokes would not end in blood shed, but alot of back and forth bantering and ribbing and more than likely, a shit ton of wives tales getting thrown around the fire with very little actual facts. By wives tales I mean the I heard this shit from a buddy of a cousins friend that had a friend that I banged his sister once in high school kinda crap... The Pacer comes to mind. It go a bad rap from guys with dumb feet that couldnt fly a tail dragger so foll lore has it that it is a squirrely POS that should never be flown. Well I can tell you that the guy that started that one never flew a KF I or an early Avid with narrow gear and cable brakes!! I will defend the pacer like a mofo and will take that plane places that Larry wont take his KF :lol:

OK, so back to engines... I have a shit ton of time behind a 583 on a sled, but never in a plane so I cant say how they would do in the plane. I know if you use the wrong kind of oil the RAVE valves will gum up and stick like a sumbitch and she will be a guttless POS. The same is true with ALL engine manufactures (Arctic Cat has "power valves" but the are the save a the RAVE valves just actuated off cables with a servo instead of vacuum) I would not be afraid to fly behind a 583 for one second. I tried to fly a buddies Avid with a 532 in it that had been converted to the snogo ignition. 9 flights that all ended in short patterns and me covered in antifreeze. WE pulled that engine down so manytimes I could do it with my eyes shut and never did figure out (for certain) what was making it overheat every time I hit about 300'.

Damn, that was alot of crap to type with a hangover so if it doesn't make any sense to ya just have a couple drinks and it should all seem clear then!

:BC:

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Posted (edited)

Leni,

Glad to hear that you survived the party!

I will stand with you on the PA-22 being a good plane - The only difference between it and a Pacer goes away as soon as you get the nose wheel off of the ground - and it stops better too. Longer wings would have helped tho.

I dont know how many tailskids I wore out on a Cessna 150 - wish I had kept them. I laughed when they started converting it back to a taildragger - never figured out why they wanted to do that - they kept the nose wheel on for students after adding the tailwheel....I flew mine like a taildragger anyway!

No way I am going to get into any discussion about the chain-saw engines - I leave that up to the ones who use them.

I just dont like to have our member insulted.

Got to stop now and go pet my Soob. :lol:/>/>

Have a nice day.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

one other statement on the 583 or 532 or any other snow machine conversion put into the Avid or kitfox. The exhaust is the biggest issue. Avid and kit fox changed the elbows and the Y pipe so the system would fit inside the cowling. I have heard of guys that used the stock exhaust elbow from rotax and put a bump in the cowling to clear the longer elbow and they gained 500 RPM on the 582. 2 Strokes are times by the exhaust back pressure cone and if you doink with the length of the cone it will make the engine fall on it's face or get very particular and "pipey" so I can see the 583 being used on a trike or any other ultralight / PPC etc using the stock, full length elbow and they run great. Put them on a KF or avid or any other plane with a cowling that the pipe has been modified to fit inside the cowling and they may run like crap.

This will be my biggest challenge to over come on the 800 engine in my plane and I may end up with a funky cowling to clear the exhaust system. I am going to run it on a stand with a ground adjustable prop and stock exhaust to set the bench mark for engine performance, then start cutting and twisting my pipe to try and fit it inside the cowling without changing the overall length of the pipe so I get the same RPM as the stock pipe.

Ed, I dont mind picking on members little here and there, not everyone will agree on every thing.... just dont get the name calling and mother insulting going too much and all will be good here :lmao:

If any needs tickets to BHIR (butt hurt island resort) let me know cause the ferry leaves for the island about every two hours :lol: < That is what we use on one of the sled forums I hang out on.. when a member gets their feeling hurt and takes a few days off to lurk and cool down we refer to that as "taking a trip to the Island"

:BC:

While your petting your soob, I will be braaaaaaaaping it up with my 2 stroke!

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Posted

A funny thing happened when Merle Williams flew his multi award winning Rotax 583 powered beautiful Kitfox to Sun & Fun In Fla. a few years ago from Arizona and back :rolleyes: While on display Phil Lockwood along with a couple other Rotax wigs , one of them blirted out , THATS AN ILLEGAL ENGINE ! and as the group around Merles plane got larger the three Rotax guys tucked their tail and moved on , True story :) BTW he usually flew it at 62 to 64 hundred RPM getting just over 3.5 GPH not at 7000 as was portrayed by one poster to be necessary to be flyable , Just the Facts !

GASSITT

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Posted

Ed, I dont mind picking on members little here and there, not everyone will agree on every thing.... just dont get the name calling and mother insulting going too much and all will be good here :lmao:/>

If any needs tickets to BHIR (butt hurt island resort) let me know cause the ferry leaves for the island about every two hours :lol:/> < That is what we use on one of the sled forums I hang out on.. when a member gets their feeling hurt and takes a few days off to lurk and cool down we refer to that as "taking a trip to the Island"

:BC:/>

While your petting your soob, I will be braaaaaaaaping it up with my 2 stroke!

I've got a tough old butt - Just ask anyone who ever tried to chew on it. :lol:

Sorry - Never want a ticket to an island - I told you that I dont fly floats because I cant swim!

Besides that, after spending 4 1/2 days in monster storms in the North Atlantic - There aint a boat big enough for me to get on!

Any engine that keeps the fan turning is good. (Note the word "KEEPS"!)

ED in MO

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Posted (edited)

I'll just add this to the fire as Leni says; the Rotax engines are good, reliable (if you know what you are doing) and light, but the prices they want for their aircraft engines and parts are obscene. There is no reason they shouldn't be more in line with the snow machine market; new and used. I flew behind my 670 engine for about 250 hours and it nuked on me; I am not sure what caused it. I don't know that a 582 wouldn't have done the same thing. It could have been something that I did or a fluke in a part or the way it was put together. To me it doesn't make sense that a 582 would be any more durable than a 583 as long as you got the tuning and jetting correct and made sure you fed it and flew it properly. I do know one thing about the snow machine engine, it requires the right pipe/expansion chamber to run right. My 670 had the whole expansion chamber cut and twisted to fit in the cowl and the muffler hung underneath. It would not run worth a hoot with the 582 muffler. It also fell off the power almost completely below 4500 rpm. Once you learned that it flew fine. I moved the Mikuni carbs from it to my 582 after the 670 nuked and it flew just great with the Mikuni's.

One of the reasons I like my Subaru is because I can buy 3 of them for the price of the Rotax 912. It is heavier than the 912 but it has been a great motor in all respects; performance, reliability and fuel eficiency. I couldn't ask for better in those areas and I hate being held hostage by an overinflated, near monopoly of a company in the 100 hp aircraft engine market and no different in the 2 stroke AC engine market.

One thing that ticks me off about the EAA Sport Aviation and Kitplanes magazines is that they are constantly trashing auto conversion engines. I about choked when I saw the article on the Titan T51 and they had to admit that the Honda V6 engine really made the plane. And I can't wait to see how Leni's Arctic Cat 800 does!

My Son-in-law took some video of a couple of take offs I made when I visited him out ice fishing while I was testing Jack's Whirlwind prop. I'll see if he will post them on Youtube and post the link; the SuberAvid doesn't do too bad flying with a heavy car engine.

Now I'll go pet my Subie like Ed....

Edited by SuberAvid

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Posted

I'll just add this to the fire as Leni says; the Rotax engines are good, reliable (if you know what you are doing) and light, but the prices they want for their aircraft engines and parts are obscene. There is no reason they shouldn't be more in line with the snow machine market; new and used. I flew behind my 670 engine for about 250 hours and it nuked on me; I am not sure what caused it. I don't know that a 582 wouldn't have done the same thing. It could have been something that I did or a fluke in a part or the way it was put together. To me it doesn't make sense that a 582 would be any more durable than a 583 as long as you got the tuning and jetting correct and made sure you fed it and flew it properly. I do know one thing about the snow machine engine, it requires the right pipe/expansion chamber to run right. My 670 had the whole expansion chamber cut and twisted to fit in the cowl and the muffler hung underneath. It would not run worth a hoot with the 582 muffler. It also fell off the power almost completely below 4500 rpm. Once you learned that it flew fine. I moved the Mikuni carbs from it to my 582 after the 670 nuked and it flew just great with the Mikuni's.

One of the reasons I like my Subaru is because I can buy 3 of them for the price of the Rotax 912. It is heavier than the 912 but it has been a great motor in all respects; performance, reliability and fuel eficiency. I couldn't ask for better in those areas and I hate being held hostage by an overinflated, near monopoly of a company in the 100 hp aircraft engine market and no different in the 2 stroke AC engine market.

One thing that ticks me off about the EAA Sport Aviation and Kitplanes magazines is that they are constantly trashing auto conversion engines. I about choked when I saw the article on the Titan T51 and they had to admit that the Honda V6 engine really made the plane. And I can't wait to see how Leni's Arctic Cat 800 does!

My Son-in-law took some video of a couple of take offs I made when I visited him out ice fishing while I was testing Jack's Whirlwind prop. I'll see if he will post them on Youtube and post the link; the SuberAvid doesn't do too bad flying with a heavy car engine.

Now I'll go pet my Subie like Ed....

And the reason I like my Subie is because old retirees dont have much money - and I could have bought 3 of them for the price of your Stratus, so that is 9 of them for the price of a 912. I also have a spare sitting in the shed with 31,000 miles on it, bought for $1000. Pet-Pet-Pet :lol:

ED in MO

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Posted

Steve,

I would love a 97 hp rotax 2 cycle in the nose of my Avid. At some point I'm going to replace my 582. I have heard what you said about the 583 and am very interested. You have yet to produce any customers that can be used as a good referral for the 583 in an aircraft. So you, and you only make the claim of what a great engine this is in an aircraft. Prove otherwise, Bryce.

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Posted

Steve,

I would love a 97 hp rotax 2 cycle in the nose of my Avid. At some point I'm going to replace my 582. I have heard what you said about the 583 and am very interested. You have yet to produce any customers that can be used as a good referral for the 583 in an aircraft. So you, and you only make the claim of what a great engine this is in an aircraft. Prove otherwise, Bryce.

My question is: If this is such a great engine, then why did Rotax quit making it, and continues to make the 582?

Ed

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