Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

GOOD SETUP FOR MC-4 TABS?

22 posts in this topic

Posted

Does anyone have side-view photos, dimensions or drawing for a GOOD-WORKING setup of MC-4 brake cylinders and pedals?

I have not welded my tabs and want to get the best results I can get.

Thanks,

ED in MO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ed this is all I have on my computer. I can take some more shots for you next time I am out at the hangar.

IMG_0718-1.jpg

IMG_5689-1.jpg

Brakeimage-1.jpg

I am assuming you have read through this thread already?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Joey,

Added this reply once, and it went somewhere else - Thanks for the photos - Gives me all the info I need for MC4 pedal tabs.

Had not seen your earlier thread - great reading - If yours works good and stops you with those big tires, then my 600-6 should work - assume you have some kind of Matco calipers - mine are bigger than the early ones on KF.

Again, Many, Many, Thanks for the post.

BTW: Dont know if it is standard or not, but the #1 Airdale I saw had flat, sheet-metal brake pedals. In case someone is interested.

Think I may try that mod on mine.

ED in MO

P.S. Are your MC4s stock, or did you buy the sleeve kit which increases brake pressure about 56%, I think.?

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I still need to weld the tabs onto my tubes for the lower mounts as well. I'm just curious I seem to recall reading that if these tabs are pointed a bit more forward rather than straight up it will give better ergonomics and better brake pressure is this correct or should we just weld them on straight up?

-Robert-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I still need to weld the tabs onto my tubes for the lower mounts as well. I'm just curious I seem to recall reading that if these tabs are pointed a bit more forward rather than straight up it will give better ergonomics and better brake pressure is this correct or should we just weld them on straight up?

-Robert-

Someone more familiar with Avid pedal tubes will have to answer this one.

My Kitfox has 2 tubes mounted real close to each other, so I have to be very careful to weld the lower tabs so they dont hit the forward tube when applying rudder. I could put a vertical inverted L-tab if needed to move pivot point forward and clear other tube.

But considering that - if you move the pivot forward, and apply rudder, it moves the pivot forward and down - wouldnt you have to pivot the pedal more to get the same braking?.......think about that.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ed my brake pedals are custom made by a guy in Canada. He's a member on here. Hopefully he will chime in. The key is all in then geometry and getting the right working pressure down to the brakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ed my brake pedals are custom made by a guy in Canada. He's a member on here. Hopefully he will chime in. The key is all in then geometry and getting the right working pressure down to the brakes.

I hope so Joey - all I can do is copy what works - and give a "guesstimate" on what might not work as well. Not really worried about the pedals, as the tabs can be put where they need to be on any pedal.

ED in MO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I still need to weld the tabs onto my tubes for the lower mounts as well. I'm just curious I seem to recall reading that if these tabs are pointed a bit more forward rather than straight up it will give better ergonomics and better brake pressure is this correct or should we just weld them on straight up?

-Robert-

That is correct. The original brake pedal geometry sucks but there are a couple of ways it can be improved upon short of the [effective but expensive] mod Joey showed. In an old Avid Family Flyer newsletter, one simple (and no cost) suggestion was to move the clevis hole in the existing top mounting tab in to ~1" from the pedal, making sure you take care to maintain clearance between the brake cylinder reservoir and pedal cross tube. The lower attach point is unchanged but this improves the geometry slightly and many said it was all they needed to gain reasonably effective braking. Second is to fabricate mounting blocks out of aluminum 'C-channel' that position the lower brake cylinder attach point directly on the floorboard forward of the brake pedal torque tube. This is similar to my KF4-1200 setup but not sure you have sufficient room in an Avid. Last, my KF-3 brakes were stronger than all of them, more than enough to worry about flipping it on it's back! The KF-3 lower attach tabs are welded on the brake torque tube and angled way more forward than Avid for better geometry. If you need to weld tabs on, I strongly recommend this simple change. Pic attached is my KF-3 so you can see the tab angle.

post-53-13476705647425_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Another technical consideration is the amount of leverage: Matco says that the ratio of leverage needed is different on the 1/2 inch bore MC-1, cylinders compared to the 5/8 bore of the MC-4 & 5 cylinders. I have read this difference, but cant quote it.

But, all else failing, you can buy the sleeve kit for the later ones to go to 1/2 inch bore and increase braking.

ED in MO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

That is correct. The original brake pedal geometry sucks but there are a couple of ways it can be improved upon short of the [effective but expensive] mod Joey showed. In an old Avid Family Flyer newsletter, one simple (and no cost) suggestion was to move the clevis hole in the existing top mounting tab in to ~1" from the pedal, making sure you take care to maintain clearance between the brake cylinder reservoir and pedal cross tube. The lower attach point is unchanged but this improves the geometry slightly and many said it was all they needed to gain reasonably effective braking. Second is to fabricate mounting blocks out of aluminum 'C-channel' that position the lower brake cylinder attach point directly on the floorboard forward of the brake pedal torque tube. This is similar to my KF4-1200 setup but not sure you have sufficient room in an Avid. Last, my KF-3 brakes were stronger than all of them, more than enough to worry about flipping it on it's back! The KF-3 lower attach tabs are welded on the brake torque tube and angled way more forward than Avid for better geometry. If you need to weld tabs on, I strongly recommend this simple change. Pic attached is my KF-3 so you can see the tab angle.

Doug, your photo shows what I was talking about with the kitfox dual tubes - If you moved to the middle right side, there would not be room to put that lower tab forward - it would hit the other tube. Looks like also, the tubes would need to be raised up to keep that forward tab from hitting the floorboards. Think my KF2 had a hole in the floorboard there which I didnt like.

Your KF3, like my KF2, probably had the MC-1 cylinders with the smaller bore, which cant be used with dual brakes.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I still need to weld the tabs onto my tubes for the lower mounts as well. I'm just curious I seem to recall reading that if these tabs are pointed a bit more forward rather than straight up it will give better ergonomics and better brake pressure is this correct or should we just weld them on straight up?

-Robert-

Arent you using the MC-4 cylinders like Joey? If his setup works good with those huge tires, then I will copy it.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I believe I read the part about the leverage ratios for the different master cylinders on the MATCO website. Check it out.

ED in MO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

One thing I would caution on moving the lower tabs to C channel on the floor boards. My brothers Pacer convertion did this and they SUCK! When the bottom of the cylinder dont move with the pedal they tend to kick the top of the brake pedal forward when you depress the opposite rudder. IE, if you push right rudder, the left brake pedal will pivot forwards making you push on the left brake unless you keep your toes off the brake pedal portion. His plane was put on its back TWICE by previous owners who accidentally got onto the brakes when trying to make a rudder correction on the ground.

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

One thing I would caution on moving the lower tabs to C channel on the floor boards. My brothers Pacer convertion did this and they SUCK! When the bottom of the cylinder dont move with the pedal they tend to kick the top of the brake pedal forward when you depress the opposite rudder. IE, if you push right rudder, the left brake pedal will pivot forwards making you push on the left brake unless you keep your toes off the brake pedal portion. His plane was put on its back TWICE by previous owners who accidentally got onto the brakes when trying to make a rudder correction on the ground.

:BC:

I thought there might be a problem with this even when pushing on either pedal - since bottom pivot dont stay in the same position in regard to pedal supports, any pedal movement should change the MC/pedal angle/relationship -

not being that knowledgeable, I didnt say anything. Glad you added that.

P.S. LOVE your beer-drinking funny faces and other cuties - Heck, I do good just to find the abc keys..........

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ed. The Beer chug came from another site I frequent that is for snowmachining.. it is our way of saying good luck, cheers, take it easy etc so I carried it over to this site. You can either click the list of smileys to pull it up, or I made the code real simple. There are several that are pretty intuitive. to make them show up without having to pull up the list of them just type in : bc : without the spaces between the characters. The same with :lol: = : lol : and :lmao: = : lmao:

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ed. The Beer chug came from another site I frequent that is for snowmachining.. it is our way of saying good luck, cheers, take it easy etc so I carried it over to this site. You can either click the list of smileys to pull it up, or I made the code real simple. There are several that are pretty intuitive. to make them show up without having to pull up the list of them just type in : bc : without the spaces between the characters. The same with :lol: = : lol : and :lmao: = : lmao:

:BC:

Thanks Leni,

But hard stuff for an old mule-driver to digest with all the puter stuff. I couldnt even get "Bold print" to work after clicking it. Just thankful to be able to write with my bum shoulder keeping me from doing much building - Noticed that I must be the most prolific (probably means too dang much!) writer on this site.

Hopefully, soon, I will get back to building and shut up and make everyone a lot happier. :lol:

ED in MO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

That is correct. The original brake pedal geometry sucks but there are a couple of ways it can be improved upon short of the [effective but expensive] mod Joey showed. In an old Avid Family Flyer newsletter, one simple (and no cost) suggestion was to move the clevis hole in the existing top mounting tab in to ~1" from the pedal, making sure you take care to maintain clearance between the brake cylinder reservoir and pedal cross tube. The lower attach point is unchanged but this improves the geometry slightly and many said it was all they needed to gain reasonably effective braking. Second is to fabricate mounting blocks out of aluminum 'C-channel' that position the lower brake cylinder attach point directly on the floorboard forward of the brake pedal torque tube. This is similar to my KF4-1200 setup but not sure you have sufficient room in an Avid. Last, my KF-3 brakes were stronger than all of them, more than enough to worry about flipping it on it's back! The KF-3 lower attach tabs are welded on the brake torque tube and angled way more forward than Avid for better geometry. If you need to weld tabs on, I strongly recommend this simple change. Pic attached is my KF-3 so you can see the tab angle.

Thanks Doug,I now notice that KF tubes are opposite of the Avid tubes (compare my pics to your pics) so I think i will have to just weld them on pointing up.

Ed, Yes I am going to be getting the MC-4Ds so I think I will use the pedals I've made and do the rest like Joey's Thanks

-Robert-

post-352-13477808650273_thumb.jpg

Edited by High Country

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Thanks Doug,I now notice that KF tubes are opposite of the Avid tubes (compare my pics to your pics) so I think i will have to just weld them on pointing up.

Ed, Yes I am going to be getting the MC-4Ds so I think I will use the pedals I've made and do the rest like Joey's Thanks

-Robert-

I see what you mean by "opposite" - your left looks like my right. You would still have the same problem as mine if you point the lower tabs forward - it would hit the forward tube - I Like your pedals - thinking of taking lazy way out and just rivet sheet to my tube pedals. My two pair of MC-4s are different - one set is 3/8 inch longer than other, so got to put different height tabs on to make pedals same angle - no problem with that - someone, someday, will wonder why........

ED in MO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I see what you mean by "opposite" - your left looks like my right. You would still have the same problem as mine if you point the lower tabs forward - it would hit the forward tube - I Like your pedals - thinking of taking lazy way out and just rivet sheet to my tube pedals. My two pair of MC-4s are different - one set is 3/8 inch longer than other, so got to put different height tabs on to make pedals same angle - no problem with that - someone, someday, will wonder why........

ED in MO

Or use the same height tabs and just screw the clevis in / out to make up the difference. :lol:

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Or use the same height tabs and just screw the clevis in / out to make up the difference. :lol:

:BC:

That would be great if the one set had a clevis, or threads - just has a hole in the shaft - came off of a Pitts - no problem to make lower tabs a bit taller for the other set. It would sure be nice if Matco would put model numbers on their MCs and Calipers.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That would be great if the one set had a clevis, or threads - just has a hole in the shaft - came off of a Pitts - no problem to make lower tabs a bit taller for the other set. It would sure be nice if Matco would put model numbers on their MCs and Calipers.

ED in MO

ahhh, I got ya now! I was thinking you had the MC1 or MC 4 masters that had the threaded ends and that you were just over thinking it :lol: I am guilty of that sometimes. Tend to overlook the obvious for a better, more complicated time consuming pain in the ass way of doing something.... then kick myself in the ass for not seeing the obvious to begin with!

I tell my employes all the time that if you want to know the easiest way to get the job done, ask the laziest man on the crew :lol:

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

ahhh, I got ya now! I was thinking you had the MC1 or MC 4 masters that had the threaded ends and that you were just over thinking it :lol: I am guilty of that sometimes. Tend to overlook the obvious for a better, more complicated time consuming pain in the ass way of doing something.... then kick myself in the ass for not seeing the obvious to begin with!

I tell my employes all the time that if you want to know the easiest way to get the job done, ask the laziest man on the crew :lol:

:BC:

wE ARE ALL GUILTY of sometimes not making ourselves or our problems or intentions understood. I am probably one of the worst at that. As the wife says, "Sometimes a good kick in the ass starts the brain working"! I need one often.........:lol:

ED in MO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0