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tail up

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Posted

Now that I have it turning at slow speeds ok,I tried high speed taxing this afternoon.All I can say is wow! Me thinks my taildragger technique is a bit rusty.I was dancing on the pedals a little too much.I got it going side to side enough I had to back off the gas a couple of times.Need a bit more practice!!This is a mk4 582 with wide Airdale gear and Nanco 21 tires on concrete.I have a feeling this combo has a little to do with it.I may try moving the springs in on the extensions I put on the rudder horns,may make alittle less sensitive.

I did get up to 30 indicated with elevator neutral and no tail up.I thought it would come up by that speed?

Can anyone give me some speeds.....take off ,flap settings and speeds,approach speeds? I looked on the other forum and found some ,but they look like maybe they are for a pretty early model.

Brian

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Posted

HOLY CRAP BRIAN!!!!!!!!

DON'T DO THIS UNLESS YOU WANT TO WRECK YOUR PLANE!!

"High speed taxiing" or "Crowhopping" is about the most sure way for a low time Avid-Kitfox pilot to wreck their plane! I've seen it many times with very experienced taildragger pilots. Push the stick forward to lift the tail then rotate and fly. Then either land straight ahead (long runway) or go around the pattern and land.

"Dancing" on the peddles is a sure fire sign that you were very close to disaster today. The wide gear saved your bacon...

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Posted

I second that. The only off runway adventure I EVER had so far was with high speed taxi tests with the tail up. Go balls to the wall and take it for a 500' circuit. Then land with no sideways drift. The Avid has plenty of control surface authority to keep you from drifting. No one says you have to land on the silly center line. You can land at a an angle on the whole runway if its more into the wind. Personally I decided to learn to land the Avid without using my brakes until the aircraft slowed down to a point where if I nailed a brake and full rudder, I wouldn't hurt the plane. That's only my opinion though and there's guys on here with a ton more experience that will surely pipe up. My logic was that i'd learn to stay ahead of the plane without relying on the brakes to save me. Again, I have cable brakes and they're about as useless as could be, except maybe for maneuvering between planes on the ramp.

D

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Posted

I will third that!!! There's no such thing as a high speed taxi in these airplanes!!! Either just practice keeping it on centerline going 10-15mph or pour the coals to it and fly the thing. I too have seen several guys ground loop and wreck their airplanes trying to make them fly in a regime where they were not meant to. Mine takes down elevator to get the tail up and keep it there.

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Posted

HOLY CRAP BRIAN!!!!!!!!

DON'T DO THIS UNLESS YOU WANT TO WRECK YOUR PLANE!!

"High speed taxiing" or "Crowhopping" is about the most sure way for a low time Avid-Kitfox pilot to wreck their plane! I've seen it many times with very experienced taildragger pilots. Push the stick forward to lift the tail then rotate and fly. Then either land straight ahead (long runway) or go around the pattern and land.

"Dancing" on the peddles is a sure fire sign that you were very close to disaster today. The wide gear saved your bacon...

OK OK OK

Consider me scolded.

How about the last part of the post.........speeds

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Posted

Okay, sorry for the drama.

My Kitfox will lift the tail with forward stick within 50', probably 15 mph. An Avid should be similar.

Once the tail is up you are committed. Get the mains off ASAP. This is the ground loop danger zone, especially if you chop power.

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Posted (edited)

My MK1V with Grove gear takes a bit longer to get the tail up. I don't know what speed, as I never really look. Keep the stick forward of neutral and ease it back as the tail comes off. I have found that the quickest way off is full flaperons and 3 point attitude. It may also depend on the CG. The Airdale gear may be different tail up wise than the standard gear. I played with what my airplane likes..... I set the elevator trim neutral, then just gard the stick, allowing it to go where it wants elevator wise. The tail usually never comes up before takeoff - loading dependant. I found that due to the geometry of the gear, the wings are ready to fly before yozu can physically get it in the air due to the landing gear. Unless I am in snow, or not on a strip I always 3 point take off. Again, don't concern yourself with speed, just feel the airplane guiding it to do what it wants to do. Airspeed is for naviagation. Ops, now I'm preaching.

larry

Edited by larr

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Posted

Not a scolding, but the original flight manual does caution against high speed taxi. Firewall it and get it in the air, no playing around on the ground unless you are fond of off runway excursions and landing gear, fuse, wing repair and buying new props. If you have the wide gear, you can get away with more, nad I do high speed taxi after landing on gravel strips all the time. I make every landing as short as I can and hit the numbers every time even if I have 6000' out in fron of me to taxi. Lots of times I will stick it on the numbers, dump the flaps and then come in with enough power to taxi at 30-35 tail up, but that is ONLY on gravel or grass strips. on runways, its 3 point and keep the tail wheel on the ground and taxi at 8-10 MPH.

:BC:

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Posted (edited)

Now that I have it turning at slow speeds ok,I tried high speed taxing this afternoon.All I can say is wow! Me thinks my taildragger technique is a bit rusty.I was dancing on the pedals a little too much.I got it going side to side enough I had to back off the gas a couple of times.Need a bit more practice!!This is a mk4 582 with wide Airdale gear and Nanco 21 tires on concrete.I have a feeling this combo has a little to do with it.I may try moving the springs in on the extensions I put on the rudder horns,may make alittle less sensitive.

I did get up to 30 indicated with elevator neutral and no tail up.I thought it would come up by that speed?

Can anyone give me some speeds.....take off ,flap settings and speeds,approach speeds? I looked on the other forum and found some ,but they look like maybe they are for a pretty early model.

Brian

Since no one gave you approach speeds - Kitfox recommends flying pattern/approach at 65 - AND NO FAST TAXI !!!!!

OLD PROVERB: "Keep thy flying speed up, lest the earth come up and smite thee."

How much taildragger time do you have?

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Not a scolding, but the original flight manual does caution against high speed taxi. Firewall it and get it in the air, no playing around on the ground unless you are fond of off runway excursions and landing gear, fuse, wing repair and buying new props. If you have the wide gear, you can get away with more, nad I do high speed taxi after landing on gravel strips all the time. I make every landing as short as I can and hit the numbers every time even if I have 6000' out in fron of me to taxi. Lots of times I will stick it on the numbers, dump the flaps and then come in with enough power to taxi at 30-35 tail up, but that is ONLY on gravel or grass strips. on runways, its 3 point and keep the tail wheel on the ground and taxi at 8-10 MPH.

:BC:

Is there some where online I could get a flight manual for a MK4??

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Posted

Since no one gave you approach speeds - Kitfox recommends flying pattern/approach at 65 - AND NO FAST TAXI !!!!!

OLD PROVERB: "Keep thy flying speed up, lest the earth come up and smite thee."

How much taildragger time do you have?

ED in MO

I have around 150 hrs in my last plane ,a Bucccaneer B2B.Used to do it all the time in it.This is obviously a different beast.I am looking at this as a lucky to not tear anything up lesson.Thanks Guys

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Posted

Brian - Where are you located? (You could fill in your profile...)

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Posted

Brian - Where are you located? (You could fill in your profile...)

SW missouri

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Posted

This is why I like this forum Brian,there is no scolding,you might get a ribbing or two but its all in fun.My tail wheel instructor taught me in a Piper Vagabond which is a short little wheel based plane.He also has a Skyraider which is a lot like an Avid or early Kitfox so he told me what to expect when I soloed my Skyraider.I wouldnt taxi at anything above 15 with my plane unless I had plans for a takeoff.I did do some long crowhops which is hard for me to do because it doesnt give you time to set your landing up.The best way I could recomeened is pick a dead calm day early in the morning and fly the airplane in the pattern until it feels right for the landing.I had to go around three times before I could get my speed of 60 established for my final approach.When I did finally get it set up it just felt right and then everything came together.Sounds like you will do fine,most people would probably have groundlooped on a highspeed taxi in one of these little guys.It would be nice if you could find someone in your area to help with your first flight,needs to be someone experienced in these type of airplanes.I have lots of drag racing experience and thought it would help me with tailwheel stuff but I was way off on that theory.Its a technic that has to be devolped and that just comes from practice.Good Luck Randy

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Posted

This is why I like this forum Brian,there is no scolding,you might get a ribbing or two but its all in fun.My tail wheel instructor taught me in a Piper Vagabond which is a short little wheel based plane.He also has a Skyraider which is a lot like an Avid or early Kitfox so he told me what to expect when I soloed my Skyraider.I wouldnt taxi at anything above 15 with my plane unless I had plans for a takeoff.I did do some long crowhops which is hard for me to do because it doesnt give you time to set your landing up.The best way I could recomeened is pick a dead calm day early in the morning and fly the airplane in the pattern until it feels right for the landing.I had to go around three times before I could get my speed of 60 established for my final approach.When I did finally get it set up it just felt right and then everything came together.Sounds like you will do fine,most people would probably have groundlooped on a highspeed taxi in one of these little guys.It would be nice if you could find someone in your area to help with your first flight,needs to be someone experienced in these type of airplanes.I have lots of drag racing experience and thought it would help me with tailwheel stuff but I was way off on that theory.Its a technic that has to be devolped and that just comes from practice.Good Luck Randy

Well maybe scolded was the wrong wording........

I do like this list

What I am going to do is take the plane out to a grass strip with more friendly terrain around it. And no more of what I just did!!

Brian

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Posted

Brian,

I dont want you to be scared of these birds, they are pretty darn easy to fly, but with the narrow gear, they can be twitchy as a cat in a room fulla rocking chairs.

As with any taildragger, your not done flying it till its tied down. Make sure, that with the new arm you put on the rudder, that you cant unlock the tail wheel with only rudder deflection. You want those springs to have to stretch a little bit to unlock until you really get used to the plane. If the tailwheel comes ulocked, the cances are you wont have enough brake power to hold it from swinging. At that point, your only option (if you have enough room) is to get on the power and try to go around, otherwise, your going for sweet lil pirroette that wil ding you wing, landing gear and your pride. If you are lucky as I was, it was only my pride :lol:

:BC:

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Posted

If your lucky only your buddies will laugh at you

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Posted

Great replies to a great subject. I found myself in the same learning curve a couple of weeks ago, high speed taxi with the tail in the air-airplane wanting to fly and chopping the throttle.Things do happen very fast in these little birds and I can see why they are called high performance. Hoping to test fly this weekend but weather doesn't look conducive to test fly. Thanks for a great site and the knowledgeable people for some eye opener advice.

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Posted

Is there some where online I could get a flight manual for a MK4??

Brian,

I dont know if there is an Avid book on flying it, but it should be in some of the manuals.

I am a Kitfox builder (which is an Avid Mod) and there is a book on flying the Kitfox which might help some.

The FAA puts out a circular on "Test flying amateur-built airplanes", and I can get the number for you - think I

also have some Kitfox info on that subject too.

Sounds like your wide gear is a lot better than the standard gear.

The Avid flyers on here have lots of experience with these machines, and I hope it helps you.

ED in STL

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Posted

Brian,

I dont know if there is an Avid book on flying it, but it should be in some of the manuals.

I am a Kitfox builder (which is an Avid Mod) and there is a book on flying the Kitfox which might help some.

The FAA puts out a circular on "Test flying amateur-built airplanes", and I can get the number for you - think I

also have some Kitfox info on that subject too.

Sounds like your wide gear is a lot better than the standard gear.

The Avid flyers on here have lots of experience with these machines, and I hope it helps you.

ED in STL

Thanks Ed

I have the FAA(we are not happy until you are not happy)stuff.Just looking for the official avid flight manual.

I picked up an open trailer from a kitfox today from a buddy for $200 bucks.I already started the mods tonight to let the wide gear fit on there.

Pretty good deal!!

Brian in MO

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Posted

Thanks Ed

I have the FAA(we are not happy until you are not happy)stuff.Just looking for the official avid flight manual.

I picked up an open trailer from a kitfox today from a buddy for $200 bucks.I already started the mods tonight to let the wide gear fit on there.

Pretty good deal!!

Brian in MO

If you find another trailer deal like that = PLEASE, let me know.

ED in MO

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Posted

Brain to expand on something that Leni said: It was recommended to me to remove the cam-plate from my Maul tailwheel (removing the ability to full swivel) until I was very proficient with the plane. This bit of advise saved my butt at least a couple of times in the early hours. I replaced the cam plate when I got to about 50 hours.

Look at this

Watch the tail wheel closely. This is with the plate installed. The deflection of the rudder during the semi cross wind landing, caused the wheel to unlock. This was a near disaster that my brakes saved me from.

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Posted

If you find another trailer deal like that = PLEASE, let me know.

ED in MO

Ed

I have a boat trailer I had picked up to turn into a trailer for a plane.I no longer need it.If you are interested you can have it for $50 or trade for?????

I kind of need it out of here.......my yard already looks like sanford and son.

Brian

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Posted

Yeah, you guys are PURE GOLD to me. One guy who was going to sell me an Avid was going to train me up by first having me master fast taxiing. So tell me more about "fanning" the rudder and proper rudder operation . . .

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Posted

If you find another trailer deal like that = PLEASE, let me know.

ED in MO

Speak to me about open vs closed trailers . . . I plan to tow long distances, and road hazards and weather worry me . . .

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