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Just joined the Fat Avid Club

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Posted

Hi,

I just picked up a Fat Avid with about 300 hours and am in the process of going through it and looking forward to flying it. I have lots of questions, but for now just wanted to introduce myself.

I am Chris Bolkan. I owned a MarkIV with a 582 that I put 1250 hours on before I bought an Avid Magnum with an 0-320 to replace it. I flew the Magnum for 450 more hours before wrecking it landing in the back country. It is at home in my garage and I am doing a long slow rebuild on it. In the mean time (while I am repairing the Magnum) I fell into a Fat Avid with a 912 in a "deal I couldn't refuse". I plan to fly until my Magnum is up and running again, or if I lose my medical qualification, which ever comes first.

Currently I am going through the Fat Avid with a fine tooth comb before I take it to the air. it needs some maintenance, and since every builder likes to do things differently, I am making some changes to make it more to my liking. I hope to have it airworthy pretty soon. However, the deeper I go into the plane the more little things I am finding that need attention. It could be a couple weeks, It could be a couple months until it is ready to go.

Anyway, expect some questions, and as I learn about my new aircraft I will be happy to share what I am learning.

Happy new Year!

Chris Bolkan

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Posted

Hi,

I just picked up a Fat Avid with about 300 hours and am in the process of going through it and looking forward to flying it. I have lots of questions, but for now just wanted to introduce myself.

I am Chris Bolkan. I owned a MarkIV with a 582 that I put 1250 hours on before I bought an Avid Magnum with an 0-320 to replace it. I flew the Magnum for 450 more hours before wrecking it landing in the back country. It is at home in my garage and I am doing a long slow rebuild on it. In the mean time (while I am repairing the Magnum) I fell into a Fat Avid with a 912 in a "deal I couldn't refuse". I plan to fly until my Magnum is up and running again, or if I lose my medical qualification, which ever comes first.

Currently I am going through the Fat Avid with a fine tooth comb before I take it to the air. it needs some maintenance, and since every builder likes to do things differently, I am making some changes to make it more to my liking. I hope to have it airworthy pretty soon. However, the deeper I go into the plane the more little things I am finding that need attention. It could be a couple weeks, It could be a couple months until it is ready to go.

Anyway, expect some questions, and as I learn about my new aircraft I will be happy to share what I am learning.

Happy new Year!

Chris Bolkan

Welcome back Chris,

The site is running good now, thanks to Leni. Keep us posted on progress.

Happy New Year,

ED in MO

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Posted

Hi Chris, that is some interesting news! Let me guess, Vince N's Avid+ trigear? If yes, you have one of very few full Avid+ kits sold by [old] Airdale, most Fat Avids are a result of the fuselage upgrade. Enjoy!

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Posted

You guessed right. It is was Vince N's plane and I'm having a good time going through it and making it "mine". Lots of fun stuff to do and figure out.

Right now I'm trying to work through the control geometry. Both my other planes had linkages. This has cables, and doesn't seem to work the same. I am running into what I consider some interference and range of motion issues with flap and aileron control.

What is the travel distance of the flapperon control cables supposed to be? The cables in this plane have a 3 inch travel. Is anyone using 4 inch travel cables to allow more control tuning?

Were solid or stranded cables provided by Airdale? If stranded, what is the number of strands? As I understand it the less strands the more positive the control and greater compressive forces the cable can withstand, the greater number of strands the greater the flex life but can handle less compressive forces. It looks like the "standard" compression rating on a 10-32 stranded cable with 4 inch throw is about 30 Lb, and for 3 inch throw is about 40 Lb.

Any cable manufacturer's part numbers originally supplied by Airdale, or what folks have come up with on their own would be awesome.

Many thanks!

ChrisB

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Posted

So....is :fishing: no one currently working on any Fat Avids, or is everyone just taking Christmas and New Years off?

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Posted

So....is :fishing:/>/> no one currently working on any Fat Avids, or is everyone just taking Christmas and New Years off?

The only Fat Avid project I know of is Doug's (dholly).

I don't think he even knows where it is in his shop any more. :stirthepot:/>

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Posted

The only Fat Avid project I know of is Doug's (dholly).

I don't think he even knows where it is in his shop any more. :stirthepot:/>/>

Birddog Travis was putting cables in his plane, and found a source for them that will make them to order - This is way back in earlier posts. Maybe you should pm him?

ED in MO

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Posted

Chris, sorry but all kids home for Xmas so not checking in as often and I'm on phone so can't post pics. Search for thread 'flaperon cables', I put cable info and pics there. HTH.

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Posted

Hi Chris,

Great to hear that you joined the Fat Avid club.

I used the cables supplied by Airdale with my fusalage so I didn't really pay any attention to thier makeup or travel. I am almost positive mine do not travel more than 3" but will have to measure them to be sure. The ends of the cables are solid as you know, so will have to see if I can find any manufacturer part numbers on them to know what the cable is. I had to build new flaperon ends for mine to extend them into the fusalage due to the wider fusalage and more taper toward the tail but I made the fork that the heim joint connects to the same offset from the flaperon tube as the stock Avid. That offset distance could require more cable throw if it has more offset.

I don't seem to have any control interference with the flaperons and I increased my flap travel to 26 degrees. The place I really had to work on to eliminate control binding was the linkage between the stick output and the L pivot arm it connects to. That took a lot of trial and error to get the max aleron deflection each way without over extending tht heim joint and getting it not too tight to rotate and not too loose to be sloppy.

Look forward to hearing about your rework and how you like the plane since you will have owned and flown all three of these Avid family soon.

Thanks again for the gret IVO IFA wiring schematic with the limit LED's. They are working great!

Randy

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Posted (edited)

You guessed right. It is was Vince N's plane and I'm having a good time going through it and making it "mine". Lots of fun stuff to do and figure out.

Right now I'm trying to work through the control geometry. Both my other planes had linkages. This has cables, and doesn't seem to work the same. I am running into what I consider some interference and range of motion issues with flap and aileron control.

What is the travel distance of the flapperon control cables supposed to be? The cables in this plane have a 3 inch travel. Is anyone using 4 inch travel cables to allow more control tuning?

Were solid or stranded cables provided by Airdale? If stranded, what is the number of strands? As I understand it the less strands the more positive the control and greater compressive forces the cable can withstand, the greater number of strands the greater the flex life but can handle less compressive forces. It looks like the "standard" compression rating on a 10-32 stranded cable with 4 inch throw is about 30 Lb, and for 3 inch throw is about 40 Lb.

Any cable manufacturer's part numbers originally supplied by Airdale, or what folks have come up with on their own would be awesome.

Many thanks!

ChrisB

I'm converting my Model B to the cable system and I believe I only have 3" of travel as well. I don't have all my pics here to confirm the exact size I will check when I get a chance. the company that originally made them for Airdale is near me so got them to make mine. let me know if you want their contact info and i will get it for you. here is a link from when I was looking for info maybe it will help-

/page__hl__teleflex%20cable__fromsearch__1 and another link. I think one of these has a pic of the original part# tag on the cables used by airdale

-Robert-

Edited by High Country

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Posted

Just back from out of town for New years. Thanks for the links to the linkags sttup pages! Will read and digest.

Chris

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Posted

I've stared at this control geometry until I am blue in the face (the hangar is real cold this time of year)

I've measured the control cables that came on the plane and useful travel is just over two, not three inches as I thought I had measured previously. That explains a lot as to why I am unable to get full control and flap travel. From what I can tell, I need just over 3 inches total travel to accomodate the full range of flap and aileron control with nothing but the control stick assembly limiting travel in the system, as I think it should be.

My friend Max is building an Avid Plus and I have borowed his control cables that came with his fuselage. They sport 5 inches of total travel stop to stop, but I do not know if they are usable stop to stop, or if the cable becomes unstable at full extension in compression (flaps extended) which is my big concern. I am unable to determine if his cables are 4 or 5 inch travel rating by design even though they have 5 inches of travel. That is an unknown with big implications.

It looks like a cable with about 4 inches of usable travel would be ideal. Since I don't know the brand of cables supplied to Max I do not know the rated travel (4 or 5). The more I look at this the more confusing it gets.

I have had Max's 5 inch total travel cables setup on my plane and can get the entire range of control and flaps I want, but I am concerned that with flaps extended the cable might be compromised in compression strength. A control failure would be catastrophic.

Am I over thinking this? Has anyone looked at a highlander to see what they use for cables?

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Posted

Chris - Mine aren't rigged right now either, but here are some pics that show my cable travel and the part number from Boise Rigging. They feel plenty strong and do seem to stay quite straight when at full travel. Doesn't appear to be a terribly high concern of over extension kinking here? In any event, I would think that my cables and rigging should be the same as yours, since these were both full Avid+ kits. Fat Avid upgrades might have differences due to retrofitting the existing wings/flaperons from different Avid Flyer models onto the new fat fuse. I know Randy and Jack had to extend flaperon horns which probably makes their travel throw different.

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Posted (edited)

Chris,

I attached some pictures of my setup. I had to offset my cable ends at the flaperon end to lower them from the welded on mounting plates to position them for the correct full travel of the flaperon arm. Three of the pics show the offset plate setup which I did with bolts rather than welding since I didn't want to weld on the plane when I discovered the problem at this point in the finish process. Yours may have a similar problem if you cannot get the full flaperon travel. Mine gets full flaperon travel limited only by the stick and I also get full flaps to 26 degrees. With full flaps and full stick deflection my down flaperon is a 40 degrees deflection down.

I also attached some pics of my flap system; I had to shorten the T arm that pulls the flap belcrank arms to 2/3 the original length to get a longer throw on my flap lever and then built a push button detent to get positive lock on my flap positions. There was just no way to do a friction system like the Avid MK IV since the flap lever travel is much less from off to full on so the flaps have too much leverage on the system without a good positive position lock.

Also, the cables have to cross twice to go to the correct flaperon; i.e. the left belcrank cable goes to the left flaperon and right to right (last pic).

Hope that helps,

Randy

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Edited by SuberAvid

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Posted

Chris - Mine aren't rigged right now either, but here are some pics that show my cable travel and the part number from Boise Rigging. They feel plenty strong and do seem to stay quite straight when at full travel. Doesn't appear to be a terribly high concern of over extension kinking here? In any event, I would think that my cables and rigging should be the same as yours, since these were both full Avid+ kits. Fat Avid upgrades might have differences due to retrofitting the existing wings/flaperons from different Avid Flyer models onto the new fat fuse. I know Randy and Jack had to extend flaperon horns which probably makes their travel throw different.

Thank you for the pictures! Your cables appear to be like Max's with 5 inch total travel. Do you remember if Boise Rigging rated them at 4 or 5 inch travel?

Chris

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Posted

Chris,

I attached some pictures of my setup. I had to offset my cable ends at the flaperon end to lower them from the welded on mounting plates to position them for the correct full travel of the flaperon arm. Three of the pics show the offset plate setup which I did with bolts rather than welding since I didn't want to weld on the plane when I discovered the problem at this point in the finish process. Yours may have a similar problem if you cannot get the full flaperon travel. Mine gets full flaperon travel limited only by the stick and I also get full flaps to 26 degrees. With full flaps and full stick deflection my down flaperon is a 40 degrees deflection down.

I also attached some pics of my flap system; I had to shorten the T arm that pulls the flap belcrank arms to 2/3 the original length to get a longer throw on my flap lever and then built a push button detent to get positive lock on my flap positions. There was just no way to do a friction system like the Avid MK IV since the flap lever travel is much less from off to full on so the flaps have too much leverage on the system without a good positive position lock.

Also, the cables have to cross twice to go to the correct flaperon; i.e. the left belcrank cable goes to the left flaperon and right to right (last pic).

Hope that helps,

Randy

Very helpful Randy! I am getting exactly the numbers you are for deflection with and without flaps, and with the travel limit established by the stick hard limits, except with full flap deflection where the down flap travel is the limit, which is how I think it should be. That is encouraging. What I am trying to do now, is make all this happen with just enough cable travel so the cable doesn't end up extended almost to its limit with flaps and aileron applied (at the 40 degree position) that is where I think the assembly is weakest....(cable fully extended in compression up at the flapperon horns). It looks like if Max's 5 inch total travel cable were really 4 inch travel, it would end up about right.

One other thing that I hadn't thought about when I bought this plane. I am becoming more and more concerned about the whole concept of using push pull cables in a flight critical application in the first place. It didn't even cross my mind initally, but the more I tinker with the system it seems fatally flawed, in that you cannot inspect the cables, so how do you know their actual condition or where they are in their flex life? What is everyone's plan to deal with this? I've been thinking about a hard and fast replacement rule, that every 200 or 300 hours I replace them no matter what. The more I think about this control system the more it bothers me. I really like the linkages that were in my other Avids. Everything in plain sight with no hidden potential gotchas.

Chris

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Posted

Chris,

I attached some pictures of my setup. I had to offset my cable ends at the flaperon end to lower them from the welded on mounting plates to position them for the correct full travel of the flaperon arm. Three of the pics show the offset plate setup which I did with bolts rather than welding since I didn't want to weld on the plane when I discovered the problem at this point in the finish process. Yours may have a similar problem if you cannot get the full flaperon travel. Mine gets full flaperon travel limited only by the stick and I also get full flaps to 26 degrees. With full flaps and full stick deflection my down flaperon is a 40 degrees deflection down.

I also attached some pics of my flap system; I had to shorten the T arm that pulls the flap belcrank arms to 2/3 the original length to get a longer throw on my flap lever and then built a push button detent to get positive lock on my flap positions. There was just no way to do a friction system like the Avid MK IV since the flap lever travel is much less from off to full on so the flaps have too much leverage on the system without a good positive position lock.

Also, the cables have to cross twice to go to the correct flaperon; i.e. the left belcrank cable goes to the left flaperon and right to right (last pic).

Hope that helps,

Randy

Randy,

I forgot to mention I LOVE your flap handle assembly. Ingenious! Vince had an electric linear actuator installed under the passenger seat to accomplish the same thing which I immediately tore out because I wanted a manual system. I ended up re installing it because as you stated ther is no good way to get the required friction in this setup. It works quite well actually, but eventually I would like to implement what you have done. At some later date I would like to get more pictures of exactly how you built your flap detent assembly and copy it. For now though I have bigger fish to fry.

Chris

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Posted

Thank you for the pictures! Your cables appear to be like Max's with 5 inch total travel. Do you remember if Boise Rigging rated them at 4 or 5 inch travel?

Chris

Chris - the only specs I have on the teleflex cables are what you see on the tag. As you probably know, the builders manual supplied with the full Avid+ kits consisted of a Mk-IV builders manual (exactly the same as I had for my Mk-IV) plus a few extra photo series, but minimal additional instruction or other documentation beyond the purchase invoice and pull sheet. Just curious, did Vince's original purchase info list a serial number? Was it a FWB kit or complete with the 912uls FWF from Airdale? Mine was FWB which is why I had interest in the KF5 cowl that eventually ended up with Marshawk. I'd like to compare our two purchase invoices etc. some time, see how much the nose gear and other differences played out cost wise.

-Doug

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Posted (edited)

Chris,

Do you have the Original Avid nose gear or the aftermarket attachment on this plane? I would sure like to see some photos either way while you have it apart.

Thanks again for the phone number - I will be talking to him.

2nd time to try to post this today - server has problems????/>?

ED in MO

BTW: With all these "Fat Avids" around, I wonder if I should rename mine "FAT Foxy Flapper", since it is now 6 inches wider than the old KF2 was?

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Chris - the only specs I have on the teleflex cables are what you see on the tag. As you probably know, the builders manual supplied with the full Avid+ kits consisted of a Mk-IV builders manual (exactly the same as I had for my Mk-IV) plus a few extra photo series, but minimal additional instruction or other documentation beyond the purchase invoice and pull sheet. Just curious, did Vince's original purchase info list a serial number? Was it a FWB kit or complete with the 912uls FWF from Airdale? Mine was FWB which is why I had interest in the KF5 cowl that eventually ended up with Marshawk. I'd like to compare our two purchase invoices etc. some time, see how much the nose gear and other differences played out cost wise.

-Doug

Hi Doug,

Vince bought the Avid Plus and firewall forward from Airdale. However, it turns out that the firewall forward came off a stretched 912 MKIV that Airdale bought back from the widow of a guy who did a beautiful job building the MKIV but died before it could be flown. So he got the engine already attached to the mount as an assembly with his "kit". I know this because of conversations with Vince and the fact that one of my other friends bought the MKIV sans engine and mount from Airdale just after Vince (who I did not know at the time) had purchased his setup from Airdale. At that time they were robbing Peter to pay Paul and lots of wierd deals were happening. My buddy was forced to buy a subaru engine with the MKIV (they would not sell this beautiful completed plane-FWF to him without the engine. My friend turned around and sold the subaru FWF which had come off yet another rusted out Avid on floats that Airdale had and was rebuilding. My friend bought another engine mount from Airdale(which was terribly made compared to the one that is on the Fat Avid) in that the carbs had to be mounted out instead of in, and there were a ton of interference issues. Turns out this was welded up was during a time when a lot of knowledge was being lost. The engine mount jig placed the engine in the correct position relative to the firewall, but the interconnect tubings were all messed up and didn't contain clearance bends and so forth that were required...but I digress. Now what was it you were asking? :tumbleweed: I will see if I got invoices and lists from Vince. I got a lot of stuff that I haven't even looked at yet. By the way, my friend who bought the Mark IV that originally had the engine and mount that is now on my plane is jealous and a bit annoyed at what he had to go through to get his bird going with the same engine it originally had on it! He is here in the Tri Cities Wa near me and is a white water kayaker like me. We have both fabricated kayak mounts for our planes and do a lot of flying to boating and camping destinations together.

Oh the nose gear. I don't know. I assume it has the gear Airdale sold with it. It is an RV-6 style nosewheel assembly. I intend to keep this plane tri gear because of the expense to change to TW gear, plus I already have a beautiful tailwheel Magnum that I wrecked and am repairing. The only change I may make to the Fat Avid is seeing if I can install a RANS bush nosewheel assembly because it looks like a fun inexpensive project. I can get the Rans assembly for about $200.00 instead of well over $1000.00 for the tailwheel gear legs or a Grove Spring.

Chris

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Posted (edited)

Chris,

the last time I saw a RANs nose gear it was steerable - not castoring. Not sure if you want to go that way.

I would be interested in what you find out about it.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Chris,

Do you have the Original Avid nose gear or the aftermarket attachment on this plane? I would sure like to see some photos either way while you have it apart.

Thanks again for the phone number - I will be talking to him.

2nd time to try to post this today - server has problems????/>/>?

ED in MO

BTW: With all these "Fat Avids" around, I wonder if I should rename mine "FAT Foxy Flapper", since it is now 6 inches wider than the old KF2 was?

Hi Ed,

I think this plane has the 'original" nose gear, an RV-6 style affair like I had on my original MKIV for a while. I am planning to see if I can install a Rans nose fork sometime in the near future, but I want to get the plane in the air first. Right now I am focusing on tasks that must be completed to make it airworthy and a solid reliable basic airplane that I can fly. Then I will start on small improvement projects. While I love to tinker, I definitely fall more into the "flyer" category than "builder" category. My main goal with this plane is to have something reliable and fun to fly while I am repairing my Magnum which is the plane I love and really want to be in.

Chris

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Posted

Chris,

the last time I saw a RANs nose gear it was steerable - not castoring. Not sure if you want to go that way.

I would be interested in what you find out about it.

ED in MO

Hi Ed,

I had three differnt nosewheels on my MKIV. I enjoy tinkering and improving. It came with the original steerable milk stool solid fork. I found an RV castering nosewheel which I really liked, but was always afraid of a landing disaster considering some of the places I like to go. It made me nervous that I might someday drop it into a gopher hole and become a pole vaulter. I ended up being very satisfied with Wade Schmidt's trailing link design. Best of everything from my perspective. I could drive right over a 4x4 and keep on rolling. Better than you could do with the mains! The only problem was cost. He lives near me and used me as a guinnea pig to build the first heavy duty one and I tested it on my Avid. I ende up getting to keep it for basically the cost of parts. If I wanted to buy one now (if he was still makeing them) it would cost around $1000.00. That's why I am interested in seeing if I can make the big Rans fork work. It's $190.00 or so. A low cost fun experiment. FYI, Wade's trailing link nosewheel was steerable too.

Chris

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Posted (edited)

Hi Ed,

I had three differnt nosewheels on my MKIV. I enjoy tinkering and improving. It came with the original steerable milk stool solid fork. I found an RV castering nosewheel which I really liked, but was always afraid of a landing disaster considering some of the places I like to go. It made me nervous that I might someday drop it into a gopher hole and become a pole vaulter. I ended up being very satisfied with Wade Schmidt's trailing link design. Best of everything from my perspective. I could drive right over a 4x4 and keep on rolling. Better than you could do with the mains! The only problem was cost. He lives near me and used me as a guinnea pig to build the first heavy duty one and I tested it on my Avid. I ende up getting to keep it for basically the cost of parts. If I wanted to buy one now (if he was still makeing them) it would cost around $1000.00. That's why I am interested in seeing if I can make the big Rans fork work. It's $190.00 or so. A low cost fun experiment. FYI, Wade's trailing link nosewheel was steerable too.

Chris

Hey, you sure woke me up on these nosewheels - I had no clue that the nosewheel on yours was steerable.....

...I thought that the Avids and Kitfox had the castoring like the RVs...I'd like to see your steering setups.

I have flown lots of different planes, but being a retired toolmaker/machinisht/tool designer/A&P, have been working on my own design for about the last 15 years or so after retiring -

The steerable has its problems, and I wont go into that here - I have never flown a castoring nosewheel, but it sure looks like it has its benefits both flying and simplicity of building. I got a lot of gray hairs when I flew an Ercoupe!

I am still building and still learning - so any info or advise I get is very welcome. Please keep it coming.

I had a setup all figured out, with fork and parts to make it, but got the spring-loaded on ebay real cheap after seeing the videos of it from a guy in Europe who is a member on here. Still exploring possibilities as I build my wings.

ED in MO

P.S. I didnt know that Rans would sell components if you didnt have their plane. I know that they have a "bargain basement" where sometimes you can buy seats, cowls, etc., but havent looked it up for years. I met Randy at a fly-in at St. Charles, Missouri some time ago when he had just brought out the nose version of the 6.

Wished I had bought a RANS years ago - their seats are the best I have ever sat on.

The big advantage I saw on the RANS nosegear is that it disconnected when there was no load on it, like the Cessna, so no crooked nosewheel on touchdown in a crosswind - unlike the Ercoupe!

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Very helpful Randy! I am getting exactly the numbers you are for deflection with and without flaps, and with the travel limit established by the stick hard limits, except with full flap deflection where the down flap travel is the limit, which is how I think it should be. That is encouraging. What I am trying to do now, is make all this happen with just enough cable travel so the cable doesn't end up extended almost to its limit with flaps and aileron applied (at the 40 degree position) that is where I think the assembly is weakest....(cable fully extended in compression up at the flapperon horns). It looks like if Max's 5 inch total travel cable were really 4 inch travel, it would end up about right.

One other thing that I hadn't thought about when I bought this plane. I am becoming more and more concerned about the whole concept of using push pull cables in a flight critical application in the first place. It didn't even cross my mind initally, but the more I tinker with the system it seems fatally flawed, in that you cannot inspect the cables, so how do you know their actual condition or where they are in their flex life? What is everyone's plan to deal with this? I've been thinking about a hard and fast replacement rule, that every 200 or 300 hours I replace them no matter what. The more I think about this control system the more it bothers me. I really like the linkages that were in my other Avids. Everything in plain sight with no hidden potential gotchas.

Chris

Chris,

I didn't get any info on the TBR for the Teleflex cables but I think they should last well beyond 300 hours if the plane is not in a corrosive environment. The actual travel on the cables is extremely small typically when flying. I move the flaperons stop to stop during runnup but otherwise about the only time I move it to the stop is to get into and out of the plane and there is no real load on them at all since the plane is not flying. My plane flies hands off for miles and miles on cruise and just requires rudder input to steer it, plus it is hangared so I would expect my cables to go 1000 hours. If they felt draggy or rough before that I would certainly change them earlier but they work very well and are not a concern to me.

Randy

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