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Posted

Just thought I would throw out a link to more info on these specific cables in case it is of any assistance. I had Boise Rigging make these same cables for mine but haven't finished hooking it all up yet to get exact deflection measurements. So far all seems good though. http://www.boiserigging.com/categories/Push%252dPull-Cables/ based off the info here and converting it with the part# in Dougs pic part# 173-VTT-5-60 (same one I used) the cable itself (173=) falls under the "utility" category and is supposedly more "rugged" Cable size (V=) is 10/32" (very light duty) TT= threaded on both ends (5=) 5" of travel and overall length (60=) is 60"

-Robert-

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Posted

Just thought I would throw out a link to more info on these specific cables in case it is of any assistance. I had Boise Rigging make these same cables for mine but haven't finished hooking it all up yet to get exact deflection measurements. So far all seems good though. http://www.boiserigging.com/categories/Push%252dPull-Cables/ based off the info here and converting it with the part# in Dougs pic part# 173-VTT-5-60 (same one I used) the cable itself (173=) falls under the "utility" category and is supposedly more "rugged" Cable size (V=) is 10/32" (very light duty) TT= threaded on both ends (5=) 5" of travel and overall length (60=) is 60"

-Robert-

Hi Robert,

Would you do me a favor and check one of the cables you bought from Boise Rigging and measure what the total travel is? I am wondering if the 5 inch travel number is actual stop to stop total travel or a useful travel number. If it is a useful travel number, it could be that the stop to stop travel is somewhat longer.

Reason I ask is that I am trying to determine if the cables I borrowed from my friend Max are 4 inch or 5 inch travel cables. My suspicion is that they are 4 inch useful travel even though the stop to stop travel is 5 inches. I need to figure that piece of information out so when I order I will know exactly what I am getting.

Thanks!

Chris

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Posted

Chris,

I didn't get any info on the TBR for the Teleflex cables but I think they should last well beyond 300 hours if the plane is not in a corrosive environment. The actual travel on the cables is extremely small typically when flying. I move the flaperons stop to stop during runnup but otherwise about the only time I move it to the stop is to get into and out of the plane and there is no real load on them at all since the plane is not flying. My plane flies hands off for miles and miles on cruise and just requires rudder input to steer it, plus it is hangared so I would expect my cables to go 1000 hours. If they felt draggy or rough before that I would certainly change them earlier but they work very well and are not a concern to me.

Randy

Hi Randy,

What you say makes sense, plus there are no sharp bends in the installation that would lead to failure in a shorter amount of time. Still not being able to see makes me nervous. I suspect it is something I have to get used to and learn to trust and believe in with experience. Sort of like flying itself was in the first place.

Chris

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Posted

Hi Randy,

What you say makes sense, plus there are no sharp bends in the installation that would lead to failure in a shorter amount of time. Still not being able to see makes me nervous. I suspect it is something I have to get used to and learn to trust and believe in with experience. Sort of like flying itself was in the first place.

Chris

You probably dont have to worry much about these cables breaking - But I sure got a wake-up call one day at Merrill Field when a flap cable broke over the threshold on final in a Cessna 172 - Went toward a 90-degree bank at not much more than a wingspan over the runway - grabbed everything I could find while bending pedals and shoving throttle....

Changed underwear soon after!

Ed in MO

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Posted

Hi Robert,

Would you do me a favor and check one of the cables you bought from Boise Rigging and measure what the total travel is? I am wondering if the 5 inch travel number is actual stop to stop total travel or a useful travel number. If it is a useful travel number, it could be that the stop to stop travel is somewhat longer.

Reason I ask is that I am trying to determine if the cables I borrowed from my friend Max are 4 inch or 5 inch travel cables. My suspicion is that they are 4 inch useful travel even though the stop to stop travel is 5 inches. I need to figure that piece of information out so when I order I will know exactly what I am getting.

Thanks!

Chris

Chris, I will check the length when I get home tonight and get back with you tomorrow, I believe they are 5" stop to stop. I wouldn't worry to much about them breaking or binding as long as there are no abrupt bends in them as other designs have used this same system, I think the belite is using it now and I have never heard of an aircraft going down because of a broken cable. Its just like flying behind a 2 stroke you get used to it and never give it a second thought. just fly and enjoy.

-Robert-

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Posted

Chris, I will check the length when I get home tonight and get back with you tomorrow, I believe they are 5" stop to stop. I wouldn't worry to much about them breaking or binding as long as there are no abrupt bends in them as other designs have used this same system, I think the belite is using it now and I have never heard of an aircraft going down because of a broken cable. Its just like flying behind a 2 stroke you get used to it and never give it a second thought. just fly and enjoy.

-Robert-

Well, After a ton of looking, pondering, measuring and ciphering, I ordered cables. I can't remember the exact part numbers but will post the part numbers if they work right. I ended up going with CableCraft. I chose the Low Friction cable. It's one of the choices you can make based upon application. The cables I ordered have a 60 LB compression or column working rating in a 4 inch throw which is what I ended up going with. This compression or push rating seems to be about twice that of competitors like Teleflex. It looks like a 4 inch throw will work correctly with all of the original bracketry welded on by Airdaile or whoever made this particular fuselage. Cables should be here tomorrow and I will report back with photos and exact part numbers if it all works out. Here's hoping!......

Chris

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Posted

Well, After a ton of looking, pondering, measuring and ciphering, I ordered cables. I can't remember the exact part numbers but will post the part numbers if they work right. I ended up going with CableCraft. I chose the Low Friction cable. It's one of the choices you can make based upon application. The cables I ordered have a 60 LB compression or column working rating in a 4 inch throw which is what I ended up going with. This compression or push rating seems to be about twice that of competitors like Teleflex. It looks like a 4 inch throw will work correctly with all of the original bracketry welded on by Airdaile or whoever made this particular fuselage. Cables should be here tomorrow and I will report back with photos and exact part numbers if it all works out. Here's hoping!......

Chris

Hi Chris,

Nice to here you join the fat guys, it's Willis here the guy you ship the kitfox cowl to modify for my fat avid, been slowly plugging away on it with with a bit of luck should be flying it this winter I hope , just getting to the cables and it looks like I will have to build the same attachment as Randy did on mine to lower them down to connect to the flapper on horns.

I finally got back on the site on my iPad , the PC won't let me get on this site for some reason. . I don't want to hijack your thread but could you tell me if you have the full lexan doors if there done in two pieces, I don't see how it would form nicely in one piece even if you can heat it.

Thanks

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Posted

Hi Chris,

Nice to here you join the fat guys, it's Willis here the guy you ship the kitfox cowl to modify for my fat avid, been slowly plugging away on it with with a bit of luck should be flying it this winter I hope , just getting to the cables and it looks like I will have to build the same attachment as Randy did on mine to lower them down to connect to the flapper on horns.

I finally got back on the site on my iPad , the PC won't let me get on this site for some reason. . I don't want to hijack your thread but could you tell me if you have the full lexan doors if there done in two pieces, I don't see how it would form nicely in one piece even if you can heat it.

Thanks

Hi Willis!

Nice to hear from you! The doors on this plane are lexan window and metal bottom. I plan to replace the metal with plastic like I did on my two other Avids. There's just too much visibility lost with the metal door bottoms. i don't think you can do it in one piece. I've always done the bottom and a second piece for the top which overlays the bottom just like if it was made of metal. Matter of fact, I've just taken the metal bottoms off and copied them out of plastic and put it back together.

Chris

Chris

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Posted

Hi Willis!

Nice to hear from you! The doors on this plane are lexan window and metal bottom. I plan to replace the metal with plastic like I did on my two other Avids. There's just too much visibility lost with the metal door bottoms. i don't think you can do it in one piece. I've always done the bottom and a second piece for the top which overlays the bottom just like if it was made of metal. Matter of fact, I've just taken the metal bottoms off and copied them out of plastic and put it back together.

Chris

Chris

Thanks Chris,I kinda thought it needed to be two pieces, did you post any pictures of the avid plus yet

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Posted

Thanks Chris,I kinda thought it needed to be two pieces, did you post any pictures of the avid plus yet

No pictures yet. I will take some. I can't take credit for building the plane, so really they would be pictures of Vince's fine workmanship. He did a nice job on all the stuff that realy counts. He is a bit more of a gadget guy than me, so I am simplifying things a bit to make it mine. Have found several things that need some attention before it starts being flown a lot and am focusing on those right now. Plus he flew it quite a bit so there is a lot of maintenance and just going through everything with a fine tooth comb and a new set of eyes. It's a great project and I feel fortunated to that he was kind enough to give me a real fair deal on it.

Chris

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Posted

So I got the controls all working perfectly. New cables, re mounting the flapperon horns and major adjustments did the trick. The control linkage now hard limits at the stick travel limit as it should to avoid stressing any other part of the control mechanism. I get approximately plus and minus 25 degrees of aileron travel stop to stop. I can pull in an additional 15 degrees of flaps, and still have the stick travel hard limited at the stick limits as it should. Full flaps and full aileron deflection provides almost exactly 40 degrees of total down travel. That was a major piece of work to get all figure out, but it is now functioning identical to my MKIV and Magnum.

I started replacing the myriad of hoses on the 912. While digging in, I found a break in the motor mount, in addition to a broken motor mount bolt I found earlier. Removed the engine yesterday. Am also removing the half inch spacers the builder used to space the engine mount off the firewall. They were unnecessary and drove the already forward CG more so. It will require minor firewall clearancing and some cowl modification, but since I am in there I might as well make it the way I think it should be.

One very important but perhaps not obvious thing I can see out about this 912 install is that washers must be placed between the engine mount and the block where the bolts secure the block to the mount. They weren't o this aircraft. On this plane EVERY mount to block bolt was loose (except the ones that mount to the gearbox, one was broken, and all of the loosness ended up resulting in a broken mount too. This is because the 4130 tubing the bolts go through to secure the block edge on hammer the aluminiuum edge on and the bolts lose torque almost immediately (I am guessing). I am re welding the broken mount and replacing all mounting bolts and installing washers per the attached sketch. Make sure your 912 install has washers! I found that AN6 washers fit perfectly on the 10mm metric bolts making a perfect surface between the tubing and the block. All four rear bolts and the bottom front bolts need washers.

I have attached a sketch because it is so hard to explain what I found.

ChrisB

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Posted

So I got the controls all working perfectly. New cables, re mounting the flapperon horns and major adjustments did the trick. The control linkage now hard limits at the stick travel limit as it should to avoid stressing any other part of the control mechanism. I get approximately plus and minus 25 degrees of aileron travel stop to stop. I can pull in an additional 15 degrees of flaps, and still have the stick travel hard limited at the stick limits as it should. Full flaps and full aileron deflection provides almost exactly 40 degrees of total down travel. That was a major piece of work to get all figure out, but it is now functioning identical to my MKIV and Magnum.

I started replacing the myriad of hoses on the 912. While digging in, I found a break in the motor mount, in addition to a broken motor mount bolt I found earlier. Removed the engine yesterday. Am also removing the half inch spacers the builder used to space the engine mount off the firewall. They were unnecessary and drove the already forward CG more so. It will require minor firewall clearancing and some cowl modification, but since I am in there I might as well make it the way I think it should be.

One very important but perhaps not obvious thing I can see out about this 912 install is that washers must be placed between the engine mount and the block where the bolts secure the block to the mount. They weren't o this aircraft. On this plane EVERY mount to block bolt was loose (except the ones that mount to the gearbox, one was broken, and all of the loosness ended up resulting in a broken mount too. This is because the 4130 tubing the bolts go through to secure the block edge on hammer the aluminiuum edge on and the bolts lose torque almost immediately (I am guessing). I am re welding the broken mount and replacing all mounting bolts and installing washers per the attached sketch. Make sure your 912 install has washers! I found that AN6 washers fit perfectly on the 10mm metric bolts making a perfect surface between the tubing and the block. All four rear bolts and the bottom front bolts need washers.

I have attached a sketch because it is so hard to explain what I found.

ChrisB

engine bolts.pdf

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Posted

Sounds like you are making good headway, unfortunately though, maybe a bit more work than anticipated. Now about those coolant lines. I presume you have the same 17mm i.d. as on the 80hp., have you found a suitable replacement to the 'cough-up-your-firstborn' price tag of the gen-u-ine Rotax branded Gates hose? My eye is still twitching after seeing the price on those.

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Posted

Sounds like you are making good headway, unfortunately though, maybe a bit more work than anticipated. Now about those coolant lines. I presume you have the same 17mm i.d. as on the 80hp., have you found a suitable replacement to the 'cough-up-your-firstborn' price tag of the gen-u-ine Rotax branded Gates hose? My eye is still twitching after seeing the price on those.

No, I haven't checked hose prices. That's right around the corner though! The builder used 3/4 domestic hose in a lot of places. I think I need the metric. It is smaller OD which will allow me more room to safety wrap it in the many places where it rubs on the motor mount tubing. It's a crazy maze of hoses with all the coolant hoses, the carb heat hoses, and the oil hoses with the external oil temp regulator.... that's for sure. I'm seriously considering dumping the carb heat hoses even if I can't figure out how to remove the carb heat modules from the carbs. They apperar to be glued on somehow. My biggest challenge with this install will be to still have it easily inspectable once all the $h1t is installed on the engine! Neither the 582 or the 0-320 were anything like this in regard to how much crap covers the engine and mounts making it difficult to inspect!

ChrisB

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Posted

Chris, I concur. There is a LOT of plumbing etc. on this engine even without your style carb heat. Coming from a relatively simple 2-stroke I spent many hours trying to educate myself. Read through all 199 pages of engine install manual, 175 pages of maintenance manual and 85 pages of operator's manual. Even read the heavy maintenance manual. It helped but I still think I would benefit from one of the Homebuilder's Help 912 Maintenance DVD's. It's a lot to absorb and comprehend for a dummy like me, and there is a lot to look for on a properly thorough pre-flight. The good news is the engine's track record proves a well maintained 912 is pretty much buckle up and fly through a pretty long TBO.

Personally, I am considering removing the carb heat box on my 912ul. I can not recall a single horror story with icing in a KF model 4 with bump cowl. Apparently, the position of carb intakes and the way the warm air circulates under cowl before exiting all but eliminate the possibility of severe icing. Not sure if the same might be true with your Avid Vagabond cowl however, but I tend to lean towards the K.I.S.S. philosophy when possible. I am sure you'll be very pleased with the plane when you get the kinks out, should be a real performer with that 100hp. Keep us posted!

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Posted

Finished the firewall modifications to accept moving the 912 back a half inch to where I think it belongs. This week I will temporarily re mount the engine in its new location and start work on shortening and aligning the cowl to match. After that is finished, I will pull the engine again and plumb it up with all new hoses. Progress is slow but positive.

ChrisB

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Posted

Chris-

Was the existing engine mount a one-off or 'standard' 912 mount for Avid from Airdale? I would have thought the longer, wider fuselage would result in a CG a little farther to the rear already. Or is this a result of the nose gear vs. tail wheel? I'm interested in your CG info, as my Avid+ did not come with any specs.

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Posted

Chris-

Was the existing engine mount a one-off or 'standard' 912 mount for Avid from Airdale? I would have thought the longer, wider fuselage would result in a CG a little farther to the rear already. Or is this a result of the nose gear vs. tail wheel? I'm interested in your CG info, as my Avid+ did not come with any specs.

This plane has the "Avid" 912 mount. As near as I can tell no two 912 mounts are the same either. At least no two that I have ever seen. I think that is because over time information has been lost from the original mount design as the company has switched hands. My suspicion is that the jig goes from one hand to another, but certain details like which tubes should be bent and how they should be angled gets lost. For instance, my mount allows carbs to be mounted "inward" as opposed to a couple I have seen that require carbs to be mounted "outboard" because of interference with tubing. I have also seen an "Avid" mount that used larger tubing in one spot for what appeared to be no good reason, until I realized that if the tubing had been bent prior to being welded in, it would have allowed it to clear the exhaust.

Anyway, my engine mount looks pretty good, except for the fact that it broke. That is now fixed. WRT to moving the engine back, I am positive that the spacers the builder used were his own idea to clear the firewall or allow the cowl to fit better and not per plan. I weighed everything out and discovered that the empty CG was at the very forward limit with the spacers. Moving the engine assembly back the 1/2 inch will not change the empty CG much, but will move it back some to a more desirable place. The stretch to the fuse is what allows the 912 to work without adding weight to the tail. I also ran the numbers for baggage, and moving the CG of the engine and prop back the 1/2 inch will not have any real life consequence on the ability to carry baggage. For the type and amount of stuff I carry to go camping, I will still run out of useful load before baggage will drive the CG too far back.

FYI, the empty weight of the plane is now 725 Lb. I should have measured it before tearing into it, but did not. Was hoping my "diet plan" would get it below 700, and I may be able to get close When I change out the battery with the PC680 from my Magnum. My holy grail on this project was to have this come in at under 700, and I might well have gotten there if not for the larger mains tires I put on.

ChrisB

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Posted

This Avid Plus I am working on turns out to be an Experimental Light Sport plane. This enables me to take a 16 hour course to become the repairman for the plane.

 

Tuesday after work I began a long trek from Washington to Cornig CA to take the course offered by Rainbow Aviation on Thursday and Friday. I spent more time driving than in thecourse, but it was a very worthwhile experience. I came away with a far better understanding of what Experimental Light Sport is and certificate of completion that will enable me to be the Repairman for my plane.

 

I learned a lot and believe the course was worthhwhile beyond just the obvious outcome of becoming the repairman. I got back home Saturday night and 1500+ miles later.

 

ChrisB

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Posted

That plane is already certificated as an "E-LSA"?

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Posted (edited)

Yes. The builder got it certificated as ELSA during the transition period. Good news for me.

There is an administrative typo error I need to correct in the on-line in the FAA registration database. The plane is listed as SLSA on-line whereas the Airworthyness Certificate states ELSA. I don't expect it to be any big deal to get the on-line registration info corrected.

Edited by ChrisB

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Posted

That's awesome, Chris.  

 

My yellow Kitfox was also registered E-LSA during the transition period.  I have the "inspectors certificate" for it, too.

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Posted (edited)

I just looked and realized I haven't made Sh1t for progress on the plane since my last post a month ago. Moving the engine back a half inch required that I modify the cowl. I'm completely bogged down in making that fit properly now. It's getting frustrating because I bought this plane to fly, not work on, and spring is now here. So much for the buy and fly aspect of this project! I would be making better progress if I weren't kayaking when I'm not working. It's so fun to kayak and the gratification is immediate. Working on planes can be a lot of fun, but right now it is sucking.

Edited by ChrisB

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Posted

 Hey Chris, I keep thinking another month or so and I should be flying my avid plus, but seems to be always a month away, being self employed doesnt leave me much time to work on it and I also built  a cedar kayak that I like to use as much as possible and our summers seem so short but I atleast I have a flying kitfox to get my fix.I tryed to attach some pics but forgot how to resize them hope there not to large

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Posted

 I tryed to put up a couple pictures but kinda forgot how, I couldnt remember how to shrink them sorry

post-282-0-41723400-1367471287_thumb.jpg

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