Different Magnum Rudder?

[RDavidson 183]

I have seen a few pics of Magnums with a straight backed rudder, not the original round one.

Are guys custom building these or is it something Brett at Airdale is selling?

I'd like to buy or build one, but don't want to re-invent the wheel!

I'm attaching a pic of a Magnum with the new tail.

Any info would be greatly appreciated...

Ron

[Av8r3400 1178]

That looks a lot like the rudder on the "Airdale" model. (Avid mark V if you will)

My friend used that tail on his hybrid plane.

[saskavid 47]

I have seen a few pics of Magnums with a straight backed rudder, not the original round one.

Are guys custom building these or is it something Brett at Airdale is selling?

I'd like to buy or build one, but don't want to re-invent the wheel!

I'm attaching a pic of a Magnum with the new tail.

Any info would be greatly appreciated...

Ron

A guy by the name of Jim Raeder worked at avid aircraft thru the 90's.He actually built the first factory magnum and all it's tooling. Once that was finnished he built his own individual magnum with a bigger wingspan and cable trailing edge as well as the non rounded rudder you are probably seeing in some photo's

[EDMO 1078]

That looks a lot like the rudder on the "Airdale" model. (Avid mark V if you will)

My friend used that tail on his hybrid plane.

I have photos of Airdale #1 - the rudder is squared and larger than the Avid - BUT, it is not like the photo, and does not overlap the VS.

ED in MO

[Av8r3400 1178]

Ed, I have no idea what the #1 prototype looks like, but the current Airdale rudder (there are/were several hanging on the wall in Brett's shop) looks like the photo.

Here's Sputzee - My friend's hybrid plane. Not the best shot of the rudder, but you can see it is the same. This is the current "Airdale" rudder.

[RDavidson 183]

Ed, I have no idea what the #1 prototype looks like, but the current Airdale rudder (there are/were several hanging on the wall in Brett's shop) looks like the photo.

Here's Sputzee - My friend's hybrid plane. Not the best shot of the rudder, but you can see it is the same. This is the current "Airdale" rudder.

That is the one!

Sounds like I need to give Brett another phone call!

Thanks for the help,

Ron

[RDavidson 183]

Ed, I have no idea what the #1 prototype looks like, but the current Airdale rudder (there are/were several hanging on the wall in Brett's shop) looks like the photo.

Here's Sputzee - My friend's hybrid plane. Not the best shot of the rudder, but you can see it is the same. This is the current "Airdale" rudder.

By the way, cool idea for landing light placement!

[EDMO 1078]

Ed, I have no idea what the #1 prototype looks like, but the current Airdale rudder (there are/were several hanging on the wall in Brett's shop) looks like the photo.

Here's Sputzee - My friend's hybrid plane. Not the best shot of the rudder, but you can see it is the same. This is the current "Airdale" rudder.

I cant tell whether the rudder in the photo overlaps the VS. The original Airdale #1 did not - It was just more squared than the Avid. It was one of the first 5 in production - Maybe the design changed after that?

My designed rudder overlaps the VS, but looks more like the J3, rather than at an angle - My elevators have the angled overlap design - all will be balanced with some lead weights.

ED in MO

[SuberAvid 617]

I cant tell whether the rudder in the photo overlaps the VS. The original Airdale #1 did not - It was just more squared than the Avid. It was one of the first 5 in production - Maybe the design changed after that?

My designed rudder overlaps the VS, but looks more like the J3, rather than at an angle - My elevators have the angled overlap design - all will be balanced with some lead weights.

ED in MO

The Avid+ rudder overlaps the VS.

[RDavidson 183]

I cant tell whether the rudder in the photo overlaps the VS. The original Airdale #1 did not - It was just more squared than the Avid. It was one of the first 5 in production - Maybe the design changed after that?

My designed rudder overlaps the VS, but looks more like the J3, rather than at an angle - My elevators have the angled overlap design - all will be balanced with some lead weights.

ED in MO

Ed, do you have a pic of your rudder?

The pic I posted is still different from the Avid Plus...the rudder I posted has a squared corner at the top. Must be a custom job. I like the squared look, but the Avid Plus would still be better than the Magnum tail. I don't like the round tail.

Thanks,

Ron

[RDavidson 183]

The Avid+ rudder overlaps the VS.

Randy,

Your plane is awesome!

I called Brett and left a message, but I'm going to use your rudder if Brett can get one to me.

A couple of questions for you...

Are those 26" tires?

Looks like a custom gear. Did you build it? I couldn't see clearly in the picture, but did you add another gear attach point near the firewall? What kind of gear is it, bungee, spring, etc?

I love everything about your plane! Nice work!

Thanks,

Ron

[EDMO 1078]

Ed, do you have a pic of your rudder?

The pic I posted is still different from the Avid Plus...the rudder I posted has a squared corner at the top. Must be a custom job. I like the squared look, but the Avid Plus would still be better than the Magnum tail. I don't like the round tail.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron,

My photos have disappeared in my puter - Go to the Kitfox IV section here, and bring up "FOXY FLAPPER FOTOS", and the last photo shows my rudder and one elevator. Mine is about 53 inches high - I believe the KF4 is 54 or so inches, but theirs dont overlap - mine is a little wider too. I added about 6 inches in width to all of my tailfeathers, and put a dorsal fin on the VS. I didnt square the corners, as they cover easier when rounded, I think.

My "Grand Plan" is to wrap the overlaps in fiberglas cloth, making a pocket, into which I will put a mixture of lead shot and 9460 until I get an overbalance of at least 1 inch, to make up for the weight of the fabric and paint added later.

ED in MO

Maybe Leni can attach the photo here - but I dont have a clue as how to do that.

Edited 2 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[RDavidson 183]

Ron,

My photos have disappeared in my puter - Go to the Kitfox IV section here, and bring up "FOXY FLAPPER FOTOS", and the last photo shows my rudder and one elevator. Mine is about 53 inches high - I believe the KF4 is 54 or so inches, but theirs dont overlap - mine is a little wider too. I added about 6 inches in width to all of my tailfeathers, and put a dorsal fin on the VS. I didnt square the corners, as they cover easier when rounded, I think.

My "Grand Plan" is to wrap the overlaps in fiberglas cloth, making a pocket, into which I will put a mixture of lead shot and 9460 until I get an overbalance of at least 1 inch, to make up for the weight of the fabric and paint added later.

ED in MO

Maybe Leni can attach the photo here - but I dont have a clue as how to do that.

Ed,

Thanks, I found the pic. I like that shape. Good point about not squaring off the corners!

You enjoy adding your own touch to everything, don't you? I like it!

Thanks again,

Ron

[EDMO 1078]

Ed,

Thanks, I found the pic. I like that shape. Good point about not squaring off the corners!

You enjoy adding your own touch to everything, don't you? I like it!

Thanks again,

Ron

Someone else may say that square corners are easier to cover - I'm not an expert.

I can say that designing / modifying your own makes building time about 10 to 20 times longer - Well, moving, and other things had more to do with adding time than mods. I filled several pages with nothing but calculations, and still dont know if I got them right.

Yes, this will be my joy, or pain to bear - cant blame anyone else!

Still wondering if I can get the nose up when I put those big flaps down?????

ED in MO

Edited 2 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[SuberAvid 617]

Randy,

Your plane is awesome!

I called Brett and left a message, but I'm going to use your rudder if Brett can get one to me.

A couple of questions for you...

Are those 26" tires?

Looks like a custom gear. Did you build it? I couldn't see clearly in the picture, but did you add another gear attach point near the firewall? What kind of gear is it, bungee, spring, etc?

I love everything about your plane! Nice work!

Thanks,

Ron

Hi Ron,

Thanks; the plane turned out to be just about everything I hoped it would be. It is still fun to fly like the Avid/KF's are supposed to be, but also has the improvements that are huge to me in making it much more functional for me. The only goal I missed was in the empty weight being heavier than I hoped it would be. Still, this plane handles a load so much better than my Avid MKIV; but I know it is not a great idea to fly it that way forever so I am going to build a new set of wings for it and strengthen them a bit. I am running a Stratus Subaru EA81 motor with a dual ignition setup from RAM, dual Bing 64 carbs and a manual mixture control, and an IVO IFA prop. The motor is heavier than the Rotax by quite a bit but is has been a great motor; good power, very reliable and very fuel efficient. With the IVO IFA prop it gets off better and increased my criuse speed by 15 mph over the fixed prop, plus it will cruise at 90 to 95 mph at just over 4 gph when I get it leaned out just right.

I had Airdale build the fusalage with three mounting points for the gear to distribute the load better and increase the resisting force moment arm on the airframe with the wider length at the top of the gear leg. This was before Just Aircraft changed their bungee to a 3 point mount. I built my own custom bungee gear that is 5.5" taller than the airdale wide bungee gear but kept the wheel position and width the same (although the wider fusalage results in a wider track). I think it turned out just right with right at 50lb on the TW empty, and with my survival gear in the back of the cargo area I have good braking without any tendency to nose over. The attached pics shows the gear a little better.

I am running the 26" AKBushwheels which I love! The first two pics are with the plane on 21" wheels and the last is on the 26"s which show the height a little better. I am 6' 1" for perspective.

[RDavidson 183]

Hi Ron,

Thanks; the plane turned out to be just about everything I hoped it would be. It is still fun to fly like the Avid/KF's are supposed to be, but also has the improvements that are huge to me in making it much more functional for me. The only goal I missed was in the empty weight being heavier than I hoped it would be. Still, this plane handles a load so much better than my Avid MKIV; but I know it is not a great idea to fly it that way forever so I am going to build a new set of wings for it and strengthen them a bit. I am running a Stratus Subaru EA81 motor with a dual ignition setup from RAM, dual Bing 64 carbs and a manual mixture control, and an IVO IFA prop. The motor is heavier than the Rotax by quite a bit but is has been a great motor; good power, very reliable and very fuel efficient. With the IVO IFA prop it gets off better and increased my criuse speed by 15 mph over the fixed prop, plus it will cruise at 90 to 95 mph at just over 4 gph when I get it leaned out just right.

I had Airdale build the fusalage with three mounting points for the gear to distribute the load better and increase the resisting force moment arm on the airframe with the wider length at the top of the gear leg. This was before Just Aircraft changed their bungee to a 3 point mount. I built my own custom bungee gear that is 5.5" taller than the airdale wide bungee gear but kept the wheel position and width the same (although the wider fusalage results in a wider track). I think it turned out just right with right at 50lb on the TW empty, and with my survival gear in the back of the cargo area I have good braking without any tendency to nose over. The attached pics shows the gear a little better.

I am running the 26" AKBushwheels which I love! The first two pics are with the plane on 21" wheels and the last is on the 26"s which show the height a little better. I am 6' 1" for perspective.

Randy,

Thanks for the info! The only thing I don't like about your plane is that it isn't mine!

I was wondering if you got the third mount idea from Just Aircraft...but maybe they got it from you! That third mount makes a lot of sense to me. I look at the new Airdale bush gear and I love the height of it, but the small area it covers on the bottom longeron scares me a bit. If you hit a rock or pothole (round here Prairie Dog hole) that extra long gear leg is going to put some serious force on that longeron!

I'm sure that you weighed the options of oleo struts, cub style gear, and aluminum spring gear, what made you pick bungees? I have another plane, a biplane, with bungees and it has really impressed me! It has taken some serious abuse while I learned to land while looking sideways!

Do you have a safety cable on your gear in case the bungee blows? I haven't read about anyone using them here.

I hate to ask another favor, but do you have any pics of the gear before it was covered?

Is it just a normal triangle shape, or do you have a third tube going from mount to axle?

Thanks again...what a beautiful plane! Tough looking! 26" tires are perfect! 21" are economical, but not tall enough for me, 29" look absurd in my opinion. I can't believe that you get those cruise numbers dragging those tires around! That is awesome!

See ya,

Ron

[SuberAvid 617]

Randy,

Thanks for the info! The only thing I don't like about your plane is that it isn't mine! :)src="http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif">

I was wondering if you got the third mount idea from Just Aircraft...but maybe they got it from you! That third mount makes a lot of sense to me. I look at the new Airdale bush gear and I love the height of it, but the small area it covers on the bottom longeron scares me a bit. If you hit a rock or pothole (round here Prairie Dog hole) that extra long gear leg is going to put some serious force on that longeron!

I'm sure that you weighed the options of oleo struts, cub style gear, and aluminum spring gear, what made you pick bungees? I have another plane, a biplane, with bungees and it has really impressed me! It has taken some serious abuse while I learned to land while looking sideways!

Do you have a safety cable on your gear in case the bungee blows? I haven't read about anyone using them here.

I hate to ask another favor, but do you have any pics of the gear before it was covered?

Is it just a normal triangle shape, or do you have a third tube going from mount to axle?

Thanks again...what a beautiful plane! Tough looking! 26" tires are perfect! 21" are economical, but not tall enough for me, 29" look absurd in my opinion. I can't believe that you get those cruise numbers dragging those tires around! That is awesome!

See ya,

Ron

Hi Ron,

The three attach point were a result of me wanting to keep the same angle of attack as I had with my Avid Mk IV. To lengthen it that much meant that it would greatly increase the leverage of on the gear and I wanted to get a wider spacing on the connection points to increase that resisting force couple arm. At the time Steve Widner was running Airdale so I asked him to build my fusalage with a third mounting point to widen the upper part of the gear and still allow me to use the stock gear if needed; plus it would give me a wider spacing and a third point to distribute the load. I asked if he would also build me a set of taller gear but he said that we would have to talk about that in the future. Steve left and Airdale was sold before we ever had the "talk" so I ended up building the gear myself. As you can see from the attached pics, the middle tube ties into the front tube at the mid point tie plate that also serves as the step back. Besides increasing the diameter of all the tubes it all is welded together to make the gear very strong; plus I added a small brace tube at the midpoint of the tension strut leg to support it in case of a compression load from a ground loop or something. I also doubled the thickness of the top tube that the bungee wraps on since this is a weak point in the stock gear. The safety cable wraps this tube under or beside the bungees and it can snap off the end of this tube from a hard landing that hits the safety cable limit. (A better way is to put the safety cable inside the V instead of outside no matter what the gear). After I built my gear I noticed that Just Aircraft started building the highlander gear with the third mounting point. In the first two pics you will notice that the gear doesn't have the horizontal brace tube to the bungee tube; I noticed I had forgotten this after I primered them so I had to add it; as you can see it is in place on the last photo when I am starting to paint the covering.

Here is my opinion... I like the bungee gear because it is simple and lighter than the other gear all things being equal. The spring gear is heaviest plus it puts a much more concentrated load on the airframe so it is not as strong unless other things are done to strengthen the airframe. The cabane gear could be stronger with a three point mount because it doesn't load the seat truss but it is likely a bit heavier and adds drag and requires more experimenation and testing to get the spring setup correct. The bungee gear works good for me and with the Bushwheels, it give a good amount of cusion, in my experience.

OK, now I will take my beating from all the spring gear and cabane gear fans.....

[RDavidson 183]

Randy,

That is slick! I really like the step...great idea!

Thanks for the pics and the info!

Sorry if I lured you into a landing gear debate...you have my vote, it makes sense to me.

Thanks again,

Ron

[Av8r3400 1178]

Randy-- you said you had Airdale make that fuselage specifically to have the three mounts aligned? Can you expand on that?

[akflyer 1427]

Randy-- you said you had Airdale make that fuselage specifically to have the three mounts aligned? Can you expand on that?

I am not Randy, but I can tell you what he had done

The third mount for the gear leg to fuse was installed by the factory. The fuse was not made special, other than adding the third mount for the landing gear between the normal gear mounting tabs.

Randy,

I am not knocking the bungee gear at all! I just like the looks of the cabane gear and think it would be nice to not have my gear sagging at -20 but stiff when its above freezing.

[akflyer 1427]

Randy,

That is slick! I really like the step...great idea!

Thanks for the pics and the info!

Sorry if I lured you into a landing gear debate...you have my vote, it makes sense to me.

Thanks again,

Ron

Ron, if you really want to be jealous you should see Randy's plane in person! It is one SWEET bird with AWESOME craftsmanship throughout.

[EDMO 1078]

Randy and all,

This is what this site is all about! Putting different minds and flying circumstances together with some new ideas - Experiments are great.

If I was back in Alaska I would be trying your ideas - For down here in the flatlands of concrete and grass, I will keep my Grove.

The extra weight keeps my downside down, I hope!

ED in MO

[RDavidson 183]

I am not Randy, but I can tell you what he had done :lol:/>

The third mount for the gear leg to fuse was installed by the factory. The fuse was not made special, other than adding the third mount for the landing gear between the normal gear mounting tabs.

Randy,

I am not knocking the bungee gear at all! I just like the looks of the cabane gear and think it would be nice to not have my gear sagging at -20 but stiff when its above freezing. :lol:/>

:BC:/>

Leni,

The bungees sag when it is below 0?

I would have thought the colder the less flexible they would be?

Ron

[Av8r3400 1178]

I'm just curious because I was under the impression that the three mount points were NOT in line on an Avid or Kitfox. Unless this was done on purpose, not in the assembly jig that Brett has (the original Airdale owned jigs).

These mounts ARE in line on the Just Aircraft.

[SuberAvid 617]

Randy-- you said you had Airdale make that fuselage specifically to have the three mounts aligned? Can you expand on that?

Leni is correct in that the fusalage is the same except for the added gear mount, but the added mount is in front of the stock two mounts , not between them. This widens the top of the gear leg by about 4". It is installed where the tube that forms the front of the door frame extends down to the lower longeron and is also a collector point for the other truss tube under the door and the horizontal floor tubing; so the third connection point is a good strong point as well.

have not really compared my fusalage to Jack's to see if steve added any extra tubing to the fusalage where the third mount is (I assumed they were the same) but I was impressed when I saw where it was located and how all the tubes tie into that point. Steve located it (or made it) at a real hard point; not just cosmetic.

Good point on the alignment of the mounting points. These are all in line which they have to be to act as a hinge; whether that was a modification by Steve, I am not sure. He knew his business when he did it.