Going Ivo IFA

[C5Engineer 1170]

Thanks to Brycecat for the link! I am now the proud owner of an Ivo Inflight Adjustable Prop. Green Sky Adventures the guy that sells the Hacman mixture controller was selling it. Looking forward to trying it out. I'll be hitting you guys up that have them for tuning tips in the coming weeks. If I'm totally thrilled with the set up I'll have a 2 Blade warp 70" tapered tip with nickel leading edges with about 100 hrs for sale.

[Guest]

Thanks to Brycecat for the link! I am now the proud owner of an Ivo Inflight Adjustable Prop. Green Sky Adventures the guy that sells the Hacman mixture controller was selling it. Looking forward to trying it out. I'll be hitting you guys up that have them for tuning tips in the coming weeks. If I'm totally thrilled with the set up I'll have a 2 Blade warp 70" tapered tip with nickel leading edges with about 100 hrs for sale.

Very cool Joey!

You are going to love it! The only problem with the IFA is the motor. Chances are you will end up having fits with it from time to time. I think it's just the nature of the beast. However if setup properly, even if the motor fails (which it will) it won't leave you in a bad situation. And motor problems aside, having an adjustable propeller is nothing short of AMAZING!

If you think your plane has get up and go now, wait till you hit go on the ground and that 582 goes straight up to 6800 and you hold it at 6800 as you lift off and climb out for the first 1000 feet by adjusting the prop! It will be loud and proud and feel like a piped snowmobile. Most people don't use the 582 that way because it isn't practical with a fixed pitch prop, but it will RIP!

There are several pretty cool tweaks you can do with the IFA. One is to install a Mercotac http://www.mercotac.com/?gclid=COe-29TjtrUCFU1yQgod3V8AKQ in place of the aluminium plates and brushes. Much more reliable setup than brushes especially if the brushes are exposed to any moisture. Another cool trick is to install polyswitches as your limit switches instead of relying on the giant circuit breaker which has to be manually reset.

I had a ton of fun with my IVO IFA, and now that I will be flying behind a Rotax engine again for a while, I wish I had it or my GSC IFA back.

If you have not installed manual mixture control, on your engine yet, you might want to consider that too. The IFA can change engine load so much that it is nice to be able to tweak the mixture too.

Just some thoughts,

ChrisB

[C5Engineer 1170]

Thanks for the info Chris! Is there a writeups or articles regarding these mods? I would prefer to do it right the first time so I don't have to mess with it later on.

[Av8r3400 1179]

I'd be interested in more info on this, too.

I have an Ivo-IFA for my project plane. I already have a "relocation kit" from Highwing that moves the slip rings and brushes to behind the gearbox. I would like more info on proper wiring and such....

[herman pahls 9]

Joey

I am curious which Ivo prop you went with? Diameter, # of blades and ultralight or medium blades?

Chris B is the one that told me about the polyswitches which cost a whooping 65 cents each and you need 2 of them and do not go without them IMO.

I am convinced that polyswitches make life easier on the IVO IFA electric motor.

The IVO breaker is 20 amps and I feel having to reset that breaker is Mickey Mouse plus it takes several seconds to reset.

I am using 6 amp polyswitches and I know when the prop has reached it's high or low pitch by watching my volts reading go down momentarily till the polyswitch opens.

The polyswitches reset instantly and I have yet to reset the 20 amp breaker since using polyswitches.

Joey already has the HACman which is very nice since pitch changes influence the EGT's significantly on the 582.

Herman

[SuberAvid 617]

Joey, you are going to be amazed at the difference that prop makes, especially with the cross country traveling you do mixed with the need for short take off performance.

The poly switch setup is exactly what IVO needs to make as the standard wiring setup. I wired mine with an LED on each of the high and low pitch polyswitches so the LED flashes when the pollyswitch trips. I put these on the panel where they are easily visible. You instantly know when you are at the prop fine or course limits and it never trips the circuit breaker.

The other thing that I would recommend if you have a few extra bucks is to get a Ray Allen or similar stick grip with 4 switches plus a PTT in the grip. I wired mine with the electric trim on the forward and back switches and the prop fine and course pitch on the left and right switches. It makes it just a natural process to tweak the trim and prop as you are flying.

[SuberAvid 617]

Very cool Joey!

You are going to love it! The only problem with the IFA is the motor. Chances are you will end up having fits with it from time to time. I think it's just the nature of the beast. However if setup properly, even if the motor fails (which it will) it won't leave you in a bad situation. And motor problems aside, having an adjustable propeller is nothing short of AMAZING!

If you think your plane has get up and go now, wait till you hit go on the ground and that 582 goes straight up to 6800 and you hold it at 6800 as you lift off and climb out for the first 1000 feet by adjusting the prop! It will be loud and proud and feel like a piped snowmobile. Most people don't use the 582 that way because it isn't practical with a fixed pitch prop, but it will RIP!

There are several pretty cool tweaks you can do with the IFA. One is to install a Mercotac http://www.mercotac....CFU1yQgod3V8AKQ in place of the aluminium plates and brushes. Much more reliable setup than brushes especially if the brushes are exposed to any moisture. Another cool trick is to install polyswitches as your limit switches instead of relying on the giant circuit breaker which has to be manually reset.

I had a ton of fun with my IVO IFA, and now that I will be flying behind a Rotax engine again for a while, I wish I had it or my GSC IFA back.

If you have not installed manual mixture control, on your engine yet, you might want to consider that too. The IFA can change engine load so much that it is nice to be able to tweak the mixture too.

Just some thoughts,

ChrisB

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the information, have to converted yours to the Mercotac? I was looking at the website and wondered how you mounted it? What about the warning not to mount it where it could have bumps or vibrations?

Randy

[C5Engineer 1170]

Herman it's a 3 blade 72" ultralight prop. Can you post a link to where you ordered the poly switches and how you wired them into the circuit. I found some old info from Ivo hat said they recommend the 68" with 2.62:1 but I know several are running the 72" successfully. I am running a 70" now.

Randy do you have any pics or additional info on your setup? I am planning on putting the switch on my panel where I can reach it with my thumb with my hand on the throttle. I don't have pitch trim and my ptt is velcroed to my stick so really no need for the grip.

EDIT: Chris I found all the info on the Yahoo site and printed it all out. Looks pretty straightforward. I'm sure it'll all make more sense when it's here in front of me. Looks like according to Herman the Polyswitch part # has changed to RHEF450-ND. Can someone confirm these are the guys I want?

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RHEF450/RHEF450-ND/1045789

Chris and Leni I am currently running 180 mains with the Hacman. I'm at Sea Level and this winter in the dense air I'm running about 1150 on takeoff at 6300 which is about all the hotter I'm comfortable with at WOT. Do you think I'm going to need to go to a bigger main jet when I turn 6500+ on takeoff or does the extra rpm pump enough gas through to compensate for less load on the prop? I'm really looking forward to being able to load it up in a descent to keep the midrange down. I'm struggled with midrange EGT's this winter especially. I'm at the bottom clip but starting to think maybe I need to go with a richer needle. Maybe this prop will cure all that. I've found that just one degree of pitch on my warp makes a significant change on EGT's, climb rate, and cruise speed. Can't wait to be able to alter these with the flick of a switch instead of trail and error and always settling for a compromise.

Joey

[SuberAvid 617]

Herman it's a 3 blade 72" ultralight prop. Can you post a link to where you ordered the poly switches and how you wired them into the circuit. I found some old info from Ivo hat said they recommend the 68" with 2.62:1 but I know several are running the 72" successfully. I am running a 70" now.

Randy do you have any pics or additional info on your setup? I am planning on putting the switch on my panel where I can reach it with my thumb with my hand on the throttle. I don't have pitch trim and my ptt is velcroed to my stick so really no need for the grip.

EDIT: Chris I found all the info on the Yahoo site and printed it all out. Looks pretty straightforward. I'm sure it'll all make more sense when it's here in front of me. Looks like according to Herman the Polyswitch part # has changed to RHEF450-ND. Can someone confirm these are the guys I want?

http://www.digikey.c...F450-ND/1045789

Chris and Leni I am currently running 180 mains with the Hacman. I'm at Sea Level and this winter in the dense air I'm running about 1150 on takeoff at 6300 which is about all the hotter I'm comfortable with at WOT. Do you think I'm going to need to go to a bigger main jet when I turn 6500+ on takeoff or does the extra rpm pump enough gas through to compensate for less load on the prop? I'm really looking forward to being able to load it up in a descent to keep the midrange down. I'm struggled with midrange EGT's this winter especially. I'm at the bottom clip but starting to think maybe I need to go with a richer needle. Maybe this prop will cure all that. I've found that just one degree of pitch on my warp makes a significant change on EGT's, climb rate, and cruise speed. Can't wait to be able to alter these with the flick of a switch instead of trail and error and always settling for a compromise.

Joey

Hi Joey,

The attached schematic is what I used to wire mine into my stick controls. I had one of our electrical engineer sketch it out for me to be sure I got it right using the automotive relay switches since the switches in the control stick have to be low voltage. If you don't use the stick switches you will not need the relays and you should be able to just use the schematic that Chris shows. The polyswitches I used I ordered from Digikey along with the relays and I think you can get the mini LED's ther as well but I found them at Radio Shack. I think the part number was different but I just used the other specs (trip amperage, etc.) that Chris gave to find the right ones.

I don't have a picture of my panel but I had a instrument cutout with a blank in it in case I ever wanted to add some instruments, so I mounted the relays on a tray on the back of the blank and put the circuit breaker in the middle with the fine and course pitch LED's on each side; all on the removable blank plate. It made a good clean setup that was easy to see and label.

Even with the Subaru, the high RPM's make for higher EGT's. As you add in pitch and the RPM goes down the EGT's go down. You may have to richen the jets/needle to get the EGT's in safe range if you are going to run at 6800 for an extended period of time on T.O. I have gone to one size larger main jets and raised my needles to the bottom clip on my Subaru and I still have to limit time at full throttle (4800 rpm) or my EGT's climb into the red. I usually just start to add in some pitch as I am climbing out.

Randy

[6320012s 12]

Made a call to Ivo, requesting info on what length, #blades etc for a IVO IFA for my KF with 582 and 3.1 gears. Says with the 3.1 use a 72" medium with 2 blades, and for 3.47 use a three blade medium 72" Ron at Ivoprop says the medium/3.47 3 blade is the best performer and the reason for the medium instead of the ultralight is the blades tend to shift with the 3.1 and 3.47. Anybody have any issues with that, or is it just marketing? I'd rather not have the extra 10lbs on the nose unless the medium is good for cutting brush.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Thought the cutoff for the medium was 100hp. Also what about the inertia limit on the gearboxes is that a factor? I know on big HP engines like a 185 they try and get the lightest prop possible for stol performance because they spool up faster. I am just speculating. I read someplace else the medium acts like a huge brake on descents. You can feed in a bunch of pitch and dump the nose and it won't pick up any speed. I know on my airplane 10lbs on the nose would take 20 on the tail to compensate.

[Av8r3400 1179]

I have a 72" ultralight for my 80 hp 912 on my project plane. Comparing that to the medium on my buddy's Sea Ray (100 hp 912), his prop is massive.

I don't know why IVO seems to be pushing the medium so much lately, especially on a light plane with a small motor like a 65 hp 582... ??

[C5Engineer 1170]

I have a 72" ultralight for my 80 hp 912 on my project plane. Comparing that to the medium on my buddy's Sea Ray (100 hp 912), his prop is massive.

I don't know why IVO seems to be pushing the medium so much lately, especially on a light plane with a small motor like a 65 hp 582... ??

Maybe because the UL is $1313.00 and the Medium is $2569.00??

[6320012s 12]

Ron said they had problems with harmonics causing the prop to move in the hub when using 3.1 and 3.47 gear boxes. Anybody seeing movement with the indicator tape?

[Av8r3400 1179]

Maybe because the UL is $1313.00 and the Medium is $2569.00??

Bingo....

[SuberAvid 617]

Hi Joey,

The attached schematic is what I used to wire mine into my stick controls. I had one of our electrical engineer sketch it out for me to be sure I got it right using the automotive relay switches since the switches in the control stick have to be low voltage. If you don't use the stick switches you will not need the relays and you should be able to just use the schematic that Chris shows. The polyswitches I used I ordered from Digikey along with the relays and I think you can get the mini LED's ther as well but I found them at Radio Shack. I think the part number was different but I just used the other specs (trip amperage, etc.) that Chris gave to find the right ones.

I don't have a picture of my panel but I had a instrument cutout with a blank in it in case I ever wanted to add some instruments, so I mounted the relays on a tray on the back of the blank and put the circuit breaker in the middle with the fine and course pitch LED's on each side; all on the removable blank plate. It made a good clean setup that was easy to see and label.

Even with the Subaru, the high RPM's make for higher EGT's. As you add in pitch and the RPM goes down the EGT's go down. You may have to richen the jets/needle to get the EGT's in safe range if you are going to run at 6800 for an extended period of time on T.O. I have gone to one size larger main jets and raised my needles to the bottom clip on my Subaru and I still have to limit time at full throttle (4800 rpm) or my EGT's climb into the red. I usually just start to add in some pitch as I am climbing out.

Randy

A couple of pics of the panel with the LED/circuit breaker installation.

[SuberAvid 617]

Maybe because the UL is $1313.00 and the Medium is $2569.00??

Wow, I didn't realize there was such a difference, is that the IFA on both? Leni is using the ultralight 3 blade 72" on his 582 and it seems to work fine. When I talked to Ron at IVO, he said 100 hp was the change point so I didn't have a choice on mine.

[Guest]

Hi Joey,

Got your call this weekend and was home working on the plane but I did not answer. I've been getting nuisance calls from Jamica, so if I don't know who it is I don't answer. Now I know.

To answer one of your questions, here is the link to the diagram using polyswitches:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/files/Polyswitch/

It's in the Yahoo files section. And here is some info on polyswitches in general:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/files/Misc%20Polyswitch%20Info/

Reading this should give you an idea how to proceed and I can help on the phone.

Did you get the Ultralight or Medium? I assume the Ultralight. So did you get flat or steep pitch blade set? If you want to run 72 inches which I would, and you have the steep pitch blade set you will be running two blades probably. What you want to start with is (by choosing initial blade pitch, number of blades and blade length)a neutral pitch setting (where the blades sit with out being torqued by the motor) is almost ideal. That is, the pitch and blade number and length that you would run in a fixed pitch configuration. That way the motor only has to twist a few degrees of pitch plus or minus to take you to climb and cruise modes respectively. This is real important.

The more the prop is run at one end or the other of the pitch range, it will be much harder on the motor, and I suspect the blades are not as aerodynamically efficient either. I think folks who don't get the right pitch blade set, or who use the wrong number or wrong length of blades, and forct the motor to twist them way out just for a 'neutral" pitch, are the ones who have the most trouble with the motor and the IFA in general.

ChrisB

[C5Engineer 1170]

Can someone post a picture of the wiring on the motor, brushes, and slip ring? I got my prop today and there are two wires coming off the motor with bare ends. Where do you mount the brushes? Not much info on the Ivo site.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Can someone post a picture of the wiring on the motor, brushes, and slip ring? I got my prop today and there are two wires coming off the motor with bare ends. Where do you mount the brushes? Not much info on the Ivo site.

I found the schematic of the Ivo site. The guy never sent me the piece that goes from the gearbox to mount the brushes so that's why it didn't make any sense on how to mount the brushes. Is it common for the lead screw to have some play in it? If I grab the end out by the castle nut it will wiggle around some. It looks like I only got one of the rubber type washers and it's on the motor side of the spool. I'm assuming there is supposed to be one between the spool and the castle nut too. Guess I will have to find a couple of them. Are the limit washers just regular old washers?

Chris I'm not following exactly what you are saying on setting a neutral setting. The set up is a 72" 3 Blade. Sorry for all the questions I just I want to ensure I fully understand what's going on before I shred into my airplane.

[Guest]

I found the schematic of the Ivo site. The guy never sent me the piece that goes from the gearbox to mount the brushes so that's why it didn't make any sense on how to mount the brushes. Is it common for the lead screw to have some play in it? If I grab the end out by the castle nut it will wiggle around some. It looks like I only got one of the rubber type washers and it's on the motor side of the spool. I'm assuming there is supposed to be one between the spool and the castle nut too. Guess I will have to find a couple of them. Are the limit washers just regular old washers?

Chris I'm not following exactly what you are saying on setting a neutral setting. The set up is a 72" 3 Blade. Sorry for all the questions I just I want to ensure I fully understand what's going on before I shred into my airplane.

Hi Joey,

What I mean by neutral pitch is the pitch the blades sit naturally without being twisted either way by the hub (whether the ground adjustable or IFA hub). I am pretty certain that this "neutral" blade position is where the blades are most effieient in that the blade has the proper twist along its entire length. it's also the position that it is easiest for the motor to twist the blades either way from. The blades become harder to twist the further from "neutral".

So if you can get the prop pitch close to perfect as if for fixed pitch operation by choosing the best combination of number of number of blades, blade length and initial blade pitch (steep or shallow as provided by IVO) with the blades in their neutral position, you are at the best spot for optimal operation of the adjustment mechanism and to maintain best prop efficiency. Did that make sense?

So for you, if yo have a 3:1 gearbox, and steep pitch ultralight blades 72 inche long, that might very well end up being 2 blades instead of 3. You might have to cut the blades down to 68 inches or so to make it work properly with 3 blades. You just have to experiment and find out. but i would only cut blades down if I could not get it to work correctly with longer blades. You cannot add length back on once you take it off!

If you go way back in the archives of the yahoo site, I believe I posted what combinations of blades and length worked best for me with which gearbox either 3;1 or 2.6:1. it might provide you with a good starting point. It's been years, but I seem to remember two high pitch 72 inch blades being about right for the 3;1 gearbox, but it's fuzzy now. If you have three blades, and want to run two instead, you may have to get the little spacers made by IVO to do that if they didn't come with your prop.

Chris

[C5Engineer 1170]

Dealt with both Ivo and Digi Key today. I ordered the stud to mount the brushes to my E box, a set of brushes to have, and their newer wiring harness that's made out of airplane wire instead of 12' of speaker wire or whatever it is that weighs almost 2lbs. Digi key was super nice to deal with. I ordered several different polyswitches from them. Hoping to get going on this project next weekend. The fun part is going to be setting up the limit washers.

After talking to Ivo today I found out I have the standard pitch blades not the high pitch. I will be running three blades.

[Guest]

Dealt with both Ivo and Digi Key today. I ordered the stud to mount the brushes to my E box, a set of brushes to have, and their newer wiring harness that's made out of airplane wire instead of 12' of speaker wire or whatever it is that weighs almost 2lbs. Digi key was super nice to deal with. I ordered several different polyswitches from them. Hoping to get going on this project next weekend. The fun part is going to be setting up the limit washers.

After talking to Ivo today I found out I have the standard pitch blades not the high pitch. I will be running three blades.

Hi Joey,

Sorry I did not call you back yesterday. I was just on my way out the door at work to get on a local river before dark. I was going to call you when I got into the car to meet up with my buddies but forgot. It was a lot of fun and we just made it off at dark!

Assuming you have the 3:1 gearbox, if you have the flat blades, you will definitely want to start with all three. I would start out by setting the prop up in neutral pitch by spinning the little adjuster nut thingy on the jackshaft of the IF mechanism so that when you assemble the prop it has no effect on blade pitch, then go out and fly it and see where you are. Hopefully it will be just about the perfect all around pitch and you are good to go for having a good setup with the IFA mechanism. If the prop is way off one way or the other you will have one of two choices. The first possibility is that even with three blades the pitch will be too flat and you will overrev. That could be a problem in that there is no easy solution. You would be stuck running the blades severely twisted just to get to your starting point. The options there are to get the steeper pitch blades or go to a higher ratio gearset. The second possibility is that at neutral pitch the engine will be bogged down. this is not a bad problem. The solution is to cut the blades down a half inch or inch at a time till you get the prop pitched for all around performance in the neutral position. What we are hoping for, is that the three blades are just about perfect as-is.

To do this setup right takes some work and tinkering if you want it optomised. I remember getting pretty tired of taking the prop on and off the plane to do all this crap. But boy will it perform when you are done! Remember, once you get the blade number and length thing figured out for neutral pitch, you still have to set the limits! That too requires taking off the prop a couple of times!

Chris

[C5Engineer 1170]

Thanks Chris! I am 2.62:1 and the prop is currently a 72". Hoping its close so I don't have to monkey with it too much!

[1avidflyer 1983]

With the 2.62 gearing if you go with 3 blade 72", my guess is you might have to much prop. If you have to flatten out the blades to much, the prop won't perform as well as it could. A blade that's running flat still makes some drag, and not much pull. I remember when a flying buddy of mine bought a Kolb with a 377 on it. They had a 3 blade 62" IVO on it. Performance wasn't very good. I told him I thought it was overpropped and we took off one blade. What a difference! Then that plane performed just great. I guess time will tell, but don't be afraid to try it both ways. I had a 3 to 1 gearbox with a 70" or 71" IVO three blade prop on my first Avid with a 582, and it performed great. Take care, Jim Chuk

Thanks Chris! I am 2.62:1 and the prop is currently a 72". Hoping its close so I don't have to monkey with it too much!