Going Ivo IFA

[Guest]

Thanks Chris! I am 2.62:1 and the prop is currently a 72". Hoping its close so I don't have to monkey with it too much!

Hi Joey!

I have a good feeling about the 2.6 box and the flatter blades. Give it a shot this weekend and report back. Remember to install it with the blades not twisted by the mechanism. If it works pretty good as is, you are in fat city! If Jim is right and you are overpropped, try two of the blades and see if that brings you into the ballpark. Hopefully you got the spacers with the prop. If not, you should go ahead and order them. They aren't much money and are nice to have around. If three blades is too much prop, and two is not enough prop, you will have no choice but to trim the blades. No big deal at all once you know positively that it is the correct course of action.

Don't forget to apply the stainless telltale tape every time you remove and install the prop, and retorque frequently for a while like every 30 minutes after mounting the prop until it is locked down.

Good Luck! This is going to be exciting and tedious all at the same time.

Once you get the blade thing all figured out, you can begin the process of wiring it up and messing with pitch change.

ChrisB

[6320012s 12]

With the 2.62 gearing if you go with 3 blade 72", my guess is you might have to much prop. If you have to flatten out the blades to much, the prop won't perform as well as it could. A blade that's running flat still makes some drag, and not much pull. I remember when a flying buddy of mine bought a Kolb with a 377 on it. They had a 3 blade 62" IVO on it. Performance wasn't very good. I told him I thought it was overpropped and we took off one blade. What a difference! Then that plane performed just great. I guess time will tell, but don't be afraid to try it both ways. I had a 3 to 1 gearbox with a 70" or 71" IVO three blade prop on my first Avid with a 582, and it performed great. Take care, Jim Chuk

Jim, I'v e got the 3:1 gears and wondering if you remember which blade number you used?

Chris, Am I understanding that you want it to be able to wind up to about 6000 in the neutral position? Will Ivo take the blades back if they are'nt the right match?

[1avidflyer 1983]

Jim, I'v e got the 3:1 gears and wondering if you remember which blade number you used?

Chris, Am I understanding that you want it to be able to wind up to about 6000 in the neutral position? Will Ivo take the blades back if they are'nt the right match?

The IVO blades I had were the low pitch ultralight blades. 70" or71" three blade IVO. I don't think it was cranked very far from nuetral to turn 6250 static. Right now, I have a three blade 72" taper tip Warp Drive on my 582 MK IV, and I think it ight be to much prop for the engine. Tempted to switch to 2.62 and 2 blade to see if it will do better. Take care, Jim Chuk

[C5Engineer 1170]

The previous owner put a spade connector on one of the motor wires. Was this originally like this or can I cut it out and solder the wire back together? It would sure be cleaner that way. I didn't find out till after I had already bought it that it was the old motor assembly. I guess I'll run it till it dies and then upgrade to the new set up.

Also my switch is wired with the power and ground on the middle two poles which is different from this schematic from Chris B.

Where do the polyswitches go on this newer set up?

Finally I understand that you can't shorten the wires that go to the brushes but is it okay to shorten the power and ground? It's only a foot from where I'm going to put the switch to my power bus.

[6320012s 12]

Very cool Joey!

You are going to love it! The only problem with the IFA is the motor. Chances are you will end up having fits with it from time to time. I think it's just the nature of the beast. However if setup properly, even if the motor fails (which it will) it won't leave you in a bad situation. And motor problems aside, having an adjustable propeller is nothing short of AMAZING!

If you think your plane has get up and go now, wait till you hit go on the ground and that 582 goes straight up to 6800 and you hold it at 6800 as you lift off and climb out for the first 1000 feet by adjusting the prop! It will be loud and proud and feel like a piped snowmobile. Most people don't use the 582 that way because it isn't practical with a fixed pitch prop, but it will RIP!

There are several pretty cool tweaks you can do with the IFA. One is to install a Mercotac http://www.mercotac....CFU1yQgod3V8AKQ in place of the aluminium plates and brushes. Much more reliable setup than brushes especially if the brushes are exposed to any moisture. Another cool trick is to install polyswitches as your limit switches instead of relying on the giant circuit breaker which has to be manually reset.

I had a ton of fun with my IVO IFA, and now that I will be flying behind a Rotax engine again for a while, I wish I had it or my GSC IFA back.

If you have not installed manual mixture control, on your engine yet, you might want to consider that too. The IFA can change engine load so much that it is nice to be able to tweak the mixture too.

Just some thoughts,

ChrisB

Chris,

I'm looking into the mercotac, and see that the two conductor devices that are rated for 3600 are only good for 4 amps. The next speed rating is 1800 at 30 amps. Which unit did you use? This looks to be a much better deal than the slip rings from IVO. If I understand correctly, the breaker is a 10 Amp breaker.

[6320012s 12]

Hi Joey,

The attached schematic is what I used to wire mine into my stick controls. I had one of our electrical engineer sketch it out for me to be sure I got it right using the automotive relay switches since the switches in the control stick have to be low voltage. If you don't use the stick switches you will not need the relays and you should be able to just use the schematic that Chris shows. The polyswitches I used I ordered from Digikey along with the relays and I think you can get the mini LED's ther as well but I found them at Radio Shack. I think the part number was different but I just used the other specs (trip amperage, etc.) that Chris gave to find the right ones.

I don't have a picture of my panel but I had a instrument cutout with a blank in it in case I ever wanted to add some instruments, so I mounted the relays on a tray on the back of the blank and put the circuit breaker in the middle with the fine and course pitch LED's on each side; all on the removable blank plate. It made a good clean setup that was easy to see and label.

Even with the Subaru, the high RPM's make for higher EGT's. As you add in pitch and the RPM goes down the EGT's go down. You may have to richen the jets/needle to get the EGT's in safe range if you are going to run at 6800 for an extended period of time on T.O. I have gone to one size larger main jets and raised my needles to the bottom clip on my Subaru and I still have to limit time at full throttle (4800 rpm) or my EGT's climb into the red. I usually just start to add in some pitch as I am climbing out.

Randy

Randy,

Do you happen to remember what the digikey number was for the relays?

[SuberAvid 617]

Randy,

Do you happen to remember what the digikey number was for the relays?

Hi Ron,

I just pulled my Digikey reciept and the polyswitches are: RHEF450-ND.

The relays are: PB686-ND They are identified as "Relay Automotive SPDT 30A 12V $3.74 EA.

Randy

[Guest]

Hi Joey,

I got on the site last night at home after receiving your call. We skiied Saturday and kayaked Sunday so I could not get to a computer till last night. When I went to the site last night I could read but not post because I didn't have my password. So...here I am today.

Regarding the spade clip in the motor, that is an add on someone did. I would remove it, solder and shrink tube the connection for reliability. I would use tefzel wire from the solder joint to the outside world.

Regarding the switch wiring, yes the cross loops are where the polyswitches go, but you also have to unscrew the connections and copy my diagram for it to work. It won't work if you leave the wiring like IVO sends it, but it is just a matter of unscrewing the connections and copying the diagram. You can always put the wiring back the way it was. When I did mine I just cut the loops and soldered the polyswitche in the loops, used shrink tube to cover bare wire and zip ties to keep vibration from breaking any wires or connections to the polyswitches.

Regarding the correct Mercotacs It's been a while I will have to get back to you on the optimal part number. It is a superior methodology to the sliprings.

I may have a couple 3 pole mercotacs laying around at home that I designed into a scanner at my previous employer you can mess with. If you can make it work the price is right! I'll check at home tonight, and if I can find one, I'll mail it to you and you can see if you can make it work. I will also go to the Mercotac website and identify the one we used on the IVO. It was different that the ones I think I have at home, but there is no harm in trying one of the ones I have if you can make it fit, and I think it will even tho the ones I have are larger.

Chris

Chris

[Guest]

Hi Again Joey,

The switch doesn't care if the power and ground are hooked up to the center two poles or to the outer poles and the polyswitches. Proper regard for electrical safety would have the main 10 amp circuit breaker upstream of the switch assembly though.

The purpose of the loop of wire is to limit current flow through the motor when the motor is stalled out waiting for the 10 amp circuit breaker to trip. This helps make the motor last longer. It is a primitave but effective way to limit current when the motor is stalled. The polyswitches limit the current further and greatly increase the life of the motor, but I left the coil of wire intact to provide a bit of resistance to limit ultimate current until the polyswitch would trip. Also if you leave the coil of wire and circuit breaker intact, you have not defeated any of IVO's circuitry. That might help some day down the road if you are trying to get them to warranty anything electrical. You haven't done anything that could even remotely damage the motor by making the polyswitch changes, but I am sure they would not warranty anything yo modified by removing their measures to protect the motor.

How did the prop work with blades set neutral? Are you at a good starting point or do you have to try two blades? Or is it possibly too flat to start with? interested to know.

Chris

[Guest]

Mercotac model we used.

http://www.mercotac.com/html/205.html

[akflyer 1427]

Joey, you will want the 3 blades. You have to have the pitch set pretty much neutral to put the blades into the hub as your putting the prop together. You putting way too much thought into starting pitch etc, that is the beauty of the IFA.. put the thing on the plane and during your ground run up set it up for around 6200 RPM static.. this will give you about 6500 on take off. You can bump the switch one way or the other to get what ever RPM you want. There is no way in hell you will be hitting the stops on either end of the pitch range. I would not mess with the limit washers etc in the hub as the metal washers have rattle the threads off 2 of the lead screws on mine over the last 400 hrs. I have teflon washers in mine on each side with the rubber washer in there too.

As far as playing with the pitch in decent.... your gonna be buying new motors if you try to really tweak the blades enough to do anything for you there... its still a 2 stroke, if you point the nose down, just pull the power way back or your going to be getting high EGT's no matter what you do to the prop.

It is still a 2 stroke, in turbulence your engine will still change RPM if you hit a down draft and pitch the nose up.. ride it out or play with your power settings to maintain RPM, if you try chasing RPM with the prop you will eat motors... Been there done that.

After the warm up I run the RPM up to do the mag check and the adjustable carbs at 4200 RPM, then I go full power and set the prop around 6200. on take off roll you may have to bump the pitch in a little more to maintain 65-6800 RPM on take off and climb out. I leave the power full in and push the nose over and start bumping the pitch in till its around 6500 WOT level flight, then pull the power back to 58-5900 for cruise. If the EGTS are too low, take out a touch of pitch, too high EGTS then bump in a little more pitch. When I say bump the switch, that all you have to do, if you hold it for more than a half second its probly too much.

at sea level and 5800 cruise I burn 5.6 to 5.8 gallons an hour. At 5000' I am down to 4.5 gallons an hour and nervous as a whore in church cause I feel like its going to burn down on me from being too lean, but the EGTS are perfect and the engine seems happy.

Put the darn thing on and fly it and 99.99% of your questions and nutt scratching will go away the first flight! Caution, wear baggy pants the first flight to help hide the stiffy you have when you land cause you just go the best Take off and Cruise out of your plane you have ever had before!

Edit...... The digital amp gauge on my plane shows a MAX amp draw of 3.5 on the prop when I am really hogging the pitch in, 99% of the time it never shows more than a 1 - 1.5 amp draw on the gauge.

[6320012s 12]

Leni,

Did I understand correctly that you tried the ultralight blades with a 3:1? I'm pondering listening to IVO and doing the medium 2 blade and maybe building my own pitch adjuster. Do you know of anybody with the medium. IVO claims better performance.... but what is sales BS and what is the real deal. Also, I seem to remember you posting that you have found a source for the motors. Would you mind sharing that?

Thanks

[Guest]

Hi Joey,

Did you try the prop? How was the pitch without any twist one way or the other? Close?

ChrisB

[akflyer 1427]

Leni,

Did I understand correctly that you tried the ultralight blades with a 3:1? I'm pondering listening to IVO and doing the medium 2 blade and maybe building my own pitch adjuster. Do you know of anybody with the medium. IVO claims better performance.... but what is sales BS and what is the real deal. Also, I seem to remember you posting that you have found a source for the motors. Would you mind sharing that?

Thanks

I ran the ultralight blades at 3:1 for months with no issues and no movement shown with the tapes.. The issue started with the early hubs that were smooth on the faces and did not really "grip" the blades, just clamped them. In certain situations, with 3:1 gears it would set up a harmonic that would cause the blades to move. The newer hubs have a knurled face on them and they grip as well as clamp. With the new hubs I have not (or did not) see any movement. I would not hesitate to use the ultralight blades with the knurled hubs and the tell tale SS tape across the blade roots. Any movement will break the tape before it moves enough to wear the bolts or the holes in the blades themselves.

My issue with the Mediums, more than the cost, is putting another 12# on the nose of an already nose heavy airplane..

[C5Engineer 1170]

I moved my connectors around like the schematic shows. One more question. As you can see in the pics the blue connectors that go to the slip rings splits off with a loop of wire that goes to the remaining poles. If I am using the polyswitches do I do away with that little loop of wire since the polyswitch will be completing that circuit?

[Guest]

I moved my connectors around like the schematic shows. One more question. As you can see in the pics the blue connectors that go to the slip rings splits off with a loop of wire that goes to the remaining poles. If I am using the polyswitches do I do away with that little loop of wire since the polyswitch will be completing that circuit????/>

Hi Joey,

Yes, you either do away with the loops of wire because the polyswitches will be replacing the loops, or you cut the loos and solder the polyswitches into the loops. Hope that makes sense.

Chris

[C5Engineer 1170]

I was pretty sure that's how it worked was just wanting to verify before I cut up this harness. Thanks for all the info. We have a jam packed weekend this weekend. If by some chance I make it to the airport I will be going flying instead of wrenching. Sorry for everyone who's waiting for results.

Joey

[C5Engineer 1170]

I got my prop bolted on today. I had the spool set so there was no load on the cams when I put it together. The stud that Ivo sent me for the brushes was too short so I didn't get to the electrical part. I did run it though just to see where it was at. I was able to turn 5950 on the tiny tach here at Sea Level. It was pulling pretty hard...Egts were low and fuel flow was high. I'm over propped a little bit in the neutral setting. I think it's pretty close though. I pitch my warp drive for 6000-6100 if I want it to be a cruise prop. I picked up some hardware on the way home to mount the brushes properly. Hopefully I will get back to it this week sometime to finish it up. Really itching to try it out.

[Guest]

I got my prop bolted on today. I had the spool set so there was no load on the cams when I put it together. The stud that Ivo sent me for the brushes was too short so I didn't get to the electrical part. I did run it though just to see where it was at. I was able to turn 5950 on the tiny tach here at Sea Level. It was pulling pretty hard...Egts were low and fuel flow was high. I'm over propped a little bit in the neutral setting. I think it's pretty close though. I pitch my warp drive for 6000-6100 if I want it to be a cruise prop. I picked up some hardware on the way home to mount the brushes properly. Hopefully I will get back to it this week sometime to finish it up. Really itching to try it out.

Hi Joey,

From my experience, static RPM doesn't mean much. Would have been a better if you would have taken it around the patch to see what RPM you were getting on climb and level flight. Still that is an encouraging number. I would not change a thing and get the electronics working now. My apologies that I have not sent you the Mercotac yet, but not a bad idea to start with IVO brushes first. You can switch to Mercotac any time down the road.

Chris

[akflyer 1427]

Hi Joey,

From my experience, static RPM doesn't mean much. Would have been a better if you would have taken it around the patch to see what RPM you were getting on climb and level flight. Still that is an encouraging number. I would not change a thing and get the electronics working now. My apologies that I have not sent you the Mercotac yet, but not a bad idea to start with IVO brushes first. You can switch to Mercotac any time down the road.

Chris

Chris,

Do you remember the cost on the Mercotac and do you have any pictures of how you mounted it? I went to the mercotac website but could not find any prices listed! I plan on installing the poly switches per your diagram (than you very much for that) and am hoping to get the mercotac installed soon as I have had issues with the IVO brushes several times in the past and now keep a spare set in the plane. I also learned that on final I use the prop as if it were a constant speed and I flatten it out to take off settings prior to landing or shutting it down. I think the mercotac will eliminate the issues of ice build up on the slip rings and the subsequent eating of the brushes if you dont get all traces of said ice off the slip rings prior to firing it up the next morning.

[Guest]

Chris,

Do you remember the cost on the Mercotac and do you have any pictures of how you mounted it? I went to the mercotac website but could not find any prices listed! I plan on installing the poly switches per your diagram (than you very much for that) and am hoping to get the mercotac installed soon as I have had issues with the IVO brushes several times in the past and now keep a spare set in the plane. I also learned that on final I use the prop as if it were a constant speed and I flatten it out to take off settings prior to landing or shutting it down. I think the mercotac will eliminate the issues of ice build up on the slip rings and the subsequent eating of the brushes if you dont get all traces of said ice off the slip rings prior to firing it up the next morning.

:BC:/>

Unfortunately no pictures, but I might be able to round something up. many years ago a friend saw the need and bought a bunch of the Mercotac 205's and sold them as conversion kits with instructions. Maybe I can get his instructions. I have a couple of larger mercotacs. I was going to send Joey one. I can send you one too if you want to see if you can make something work with one of those. I know quite a bit about these as I have designed them into scanners at my previous employer, so when you guys get going I can help make sure you get the important things right.

ChrisB

[akflyer 1427]

Chris,

If I can get my hands on one before the 20th I will put it on the plane before I head out to the lodge again and get a flight review of it. If you could get those instructions, that would be awesome!

Thanks

[C5Engineer 1170]

I almost finished up my install tonight. All I have left to do is drill the holes for the breaker and switch.

[C5Engineer 1170]

If anyone is curious I weighed the two props on a digital scale yesterday. My 2 blade warp weighed 8 lbs 1.8 oz and the 3 blade Ivo with the electric motor was 8 lbs 2.5oz. The only weight I gained was whatever the switch and wiring added.

[C5Engineer 1170]

I put an hour on the prop today and all I can say is WOW!! For starters a vibration I have had since the first time I flew this airplane is GONE. The Ivo is WAY smoother than the Warp. I saw climb rates I have never seen with my airplane today that were pushing 1500fpm. After putting in the pitch in straight and level I picked up 15mph. You can feel it accelerate when bumping in the pitch. I am VERY happy with this set up!!