Learning from Others

[SuberAvid 617]

Last weekend a Cesna 170B crashed out at Puntilla Lake/Rainy Pass Lodge. They were following the Irondog snowmachine race like leni and I did a couple of years ago. The pictures are of the crash (not my pictures) and my pictures of the approach to the lake from when Leni and I did the trip. The Cesna had two on board and amazingly they both survived the crash but the pictures I left out makes you wonder how. The story is that the plane got caught in a down draft and crashed.

In the approach pictures you are facing west with the big mountain on the south and the land runway and lodge on the north side of the lake. In the winter everyone just lands on the lake in front of the lodge like the picture of our planes show. From the crash pictures the plane looks like it is on the south side of the lake about across from the lodge.

When Leni and I were there there was not much surface wind. I took off first to the west and Leni was taking off about as I made a left turn on climb out so I would be end up flying east along the south side of the lake just about over the location of this crash site. Just as I was halfway into my downwind turn I got hit by a significant down draft; I was in a full power climb and loosing altitude. I had enough altitude to finish my turn and fly out of it but the first instinct was to try to out climb it. I remember calling Leni and telling him to watch out for it.

When I heard about this crash last weekend I got to thinking that there is something about the terrain and prevailing wind that creates this down draft. I thought at the time it might be from the wind blowing west to east over the smaller butte you can see on the west end of the lake but looking at the Topo map, the main valley makes a big loop out to the west, then south, then east then continues out to the southwest. I think the big downdraft may be the wind flowing over the big mountain on the south side of the lake that sits in the middle of this loop (that is just my theorizing). I like to try to feel the wind when I am heading into the mountains to see how bad the turbulence is going to be and decide if I really want to go into some canyons or how much I want to clear the ridges by. With this one I had no clue that I would get a significant down draft because if was pretty calm on the ground and the takeoff was smooth.

If you look at the crash pictures, the plane really buried in nose first. It appears that the plane must have stalled and started into a spin. If it had made it in upside down they probably would not have survived. My take away from this is to never try to out climb a downdraft to the point of stalling. No matter what, it is better to hit the ground wings level than nose in in a spin. This requires mind over instinct to not get into a stall situation though, so something to fix in the brain before we get in the situation.

Please feel welcome to add your thoughts and analysis on the wind, terrain, how to read this on approach, analysis of the crash, etc.

[EDMO 1078]

Randy,

I think you are totally correct - Never fight a losing fight against a more powerful force - Turn and get out of the way, and live to fly another day.

I battled the winds in Alaska Mountains, and by luck I guess, I survived.

My worst incident in Missouri was 40 years ago when I was flying a Cessna 150 - remember, our highest "mountain" is only 1700 msl - I had 40 or more knot, gusting winds (from Kansas), and I hit a hole at about 3000 msl - Dont know where I "hit bottom", because when I hit, something tore in my chest about where my sternum is, and I almost passed out - I made it to an alternate airport where I sat for hours trying to reach someone to come and get me. Fortunately, another C-150 owner landed and offered to fly me and my plane back to St. Louis. I never found out what my injury was, but it was sure a wake-up call about flying in turbalence and high winds.

ED in Mo

Edited 23 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[SuberAvid 617]

Ed, that sounds like enough of a change in direction to do structural damage to the plane too. That is quite an abrupt change in direction. Fortunately I haven't ever been there. Usually those type of conditions come with thunder storms but also can be in mountain turbulence. You probably remember when the C180 or 185 from one of the air taxi's in Talkeetna crashed on a McKinnley flight and they found the wing miles from the crash site; proof that it broke up on flight.

I like to try to picture in my mind what the wind would be doing. I think the cause of the downdraft in the crash at Puntilla Lake was likely the wind flow over the terrain rather than storm conditions since I think I felt that same downdraft in the same location. My thoughts are the next time I go in there to do something different such as turning out to the North over the lodge or take off down the lake to the East if the wind isn't too strong from the west. When Leni and I were there the landing area in front of hte lodge was groomed but the rest of the lake was pretty rough with hard snow drifts.

[EDMO 1078]

Ed, that sounds like enough of a change in direction to do structural damage to the plane too. That is quite an abrupt change in direction. Fortunately I haven't ever been there. Usually those type of conditions come with thunder storms but also can be in mountain turbulence. You probably remember when the C180 or 185 from one of the air taxi's in Talkeetna crashed on a McKinnley flight and they found the wing miles from the crash site; proof that it broke up on flight.

I like to try to picture in my mind what the wind would be doing. I think the cause of the downdraft in the crash at Puntilla Lake was likely the wind flow over the terrain rather than storm conditions since I think I felt that same downdraft in the same location. My thoughts are the next time I go in there to do something different such as turning out to the North over the lodge or take off down the lake to the East if the wind isn't too strong from the west. When Leni and I were there the landing area in front of hte lodge was groomed but the rest of the lake was pretty rough with hard snow drifts.

I remember hearing about the Talketna crash.

There were no thunderstorms the day I hit the hole - Just very strong gusty winds from the west over low hills - dont know if there was any srtructural damage to my 150, because the next week or two a lady I knew lost her clog shoe on landing her Beech Baron, jammed the pedal, and ran off of the runway and her prop ate my parked 150 and totalled it.

ED in MO

Edited 25 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[SuberAvid 617]

Sounds like a story for another day. I guess that is another lesson to learn; don't fly with clogs. Speaking of that, it took me one time to learn never to fly my Avid wearing boots with a welt sole. I did it one time in my MKIV and got the sole of my Danners hooked behind the center tubing on landing; it made for an interesting ride.

[akflyer 1427]

Randy, I remember that day like it was yesterday and I was siting in the road house in caribou hills with the wife having a burger when the owner told me about the crash. I immediately told Christine I bet I knew what happened because you and I hit the same thing and it shoved me down about 400' before I got out of it. After pulling it up on the internet at the road house, I made the same conclusion you came to.

The pictures do make you wonder how they survived it... I am going with divine intervention on this one!

[akflyer 1427]

Speaking of the Talkeetna crash... In Don Sheldons book they show the Tcrate that he was flying that lost a wing in flight (due to turbulence), he rode it in trying his best to level the wings and as I remember he said he could slow the rotation down but not stop it. He tried to time the roll to get him wheels up just as he went into the trees and pulled it off and lived to fly another day!

[dholly 718]

Those are some big-ass hills to the south. I know they can play havoc with wind swirl and would be a little leery of them in any event, but I sure would give them plenty of respect after reading this. To a complete mountain flying idiot, all I can say is it seems equal parts art, science and voodoo to me. You can do everything right and still get stuck with the voodoo doll needle. Your experience must be similar to getting caught in bad wake turbulence at a large airport, got the heart pumping pretty quick I would imagine.

[akflyer 1427]

Those are some big-ass hills to the south. I know they can play havoc with wind swirl and would be a little leery of them in any event, but I sure would give them plenty of respect after reading this. To a complete mountain flying idiot, all I can say is it seems equal parts art, science and voodoo to me. You can do everything right and still get stuck with the voodoo doll needle. Your experience must be similar to getting caught in bad wake turbulence at a large airport, got the heart pumping pretty quick I would imagine.

Doug,

Flying through some of these mountain passes up here has been the most serene, peaceful, awe struck and inspired moments of my life. The sheer ruggedness and beauty will take your breath away... The flip side is that the most terrified I have ever been (with the exception of being in a 32' boat in 80' waves 100 miles south of Kodiak) is being in those same mountain passes when we should not have been there. I was flying right seat grunt labor for a local operator a few years ago putting out drums of fuel for the Iron dog race. A turbine otter that had supposedly had the increased gross conversion done at the same time as the turbine install... Come to find out we were flying that fuel through those passes with 120 knots of wind coming across the tops of those "hills" at 3500 pounds OVER GROSS. At least I talked him into slowing it up and getting some flaps in so we were not hitting those rotors at max cruise speed as shit was flying around the cabin and I was watching the fuse oil can in mid air right behind the wings... turned the video camera on and kept it rolling most of that flight in the hopes that it would some how survive the inevitable inflight break up of said aircraft and the resulting smoking hole on the side of a mountain and give investigators some idea of how FN stupid this guy was.... I can promise you that getting fuel in place 2 weeks ahead of schedule was not worth one second of that flight!

The experience is kind of like being in the wake turbulence of a 747 at a airport for hours on end.. with no great options to set down on a 10,000' long runway as you try to get your legs to stop quivering and get the seat pulled out of your dirt star...

When we left Mcgrath I tried to talk him into topping off the tanks but oh no... he figured he had enough fuel for the trip... In the pass the red light came on for the rear tank, at the mouth of the pass the light came on for the mid tank... at 11,000' and 50 miles to go to get home the red light came on for the final front tank... an extended cruising decent was planned and we made a night landing on an unlit lake in that FN storm with less than 4 minutes of fuel on board...

That could have just as easily happened in turbulence flying across Kansas however, at least in the flat lands you have a chance of making a survivable emergency landing in something besides 34 degree water filled with ice bergs..

[EDMO 1078]

I dont think you can compare Kansas & Missouri flying with any of the mountain passes, especially those in Alaska.

flatland flying is a lot safer - and warmer IMO.

I learned a lot in Alaska.

Remember when turbelance took an engine off of a Evergreen 747 after taking of in Anchorage? That engine fell a block from my house. Lenticular clouds west of Chugach mountains that day.

ED in MO

Edited 27 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[akflyer 1427]

You can find turbulence and thermals down there that will rival anything I have seen here for wind shear and rockin and rollin in the mountains.. that was the only comparison I was trying to make

[EDMO 1078]

You can find turbulence and thermals down there that will rival anything I have seen here for wind shear and rockin and rollin in the mountains.. that was the only comparison I was trying to make :lol:/>

:BC:/>

Thats why I like winter flying down here - I would have been taller if I hadnt hit so many bumps in the summer air here! The landing spots are usually better here too.

ED in MO