Mark IV For Sale

117 posts in this topic

Posted

I just looked at that Avid with the 912, and that is a sharp looking airplane. I have no doubt, that it would fly rings around the one with the Suberu engine. I would bet that he would have to throttel back to "just" cruise at 90 with the 912. STOL performance would have to be far better as well. Far lighter = better usefull load also. If it was me, I'd be focusing most of my attention on the Avid with the 912. $1000 more, but who knows, that might go away in a deal..... Take care, Jim Chuk

Hope the guy with the Sub isn't reading this, but it's just how I feel and you asked....

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming, what could I sell the EA81 for, maybe as a FWF package and install a Rotax 912 or 914UL. I've been told atleast $25,000 to do the Rotax conversion which is definitely out of my budget at this moment but might be food for thought in the future.

From my quick calculations it would increase useful load from around 70-100lbs which would make a substancial increase in performance solo and dual with no decrease in HP and the fuel burn should remain around the same.

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way? Would it be possible to mount the radiatior anywhere else? I've heard of the cowl being modified to mount the radiator up front and reduce alot of drag.

Thoughts, experience?

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Posted

I feel like the modifications to the Avid in Wyoming greatly help

The one in Reno looks nice, so you think the 80hp 912 will outfly the 100hp EA81 with the nicer prop?

I mostly intend to do off-airport landings in improved and unimproved fields throughout NC and VA so I like the idea of the bush gear. The citabria does take a beating though and seems to handle it okay and looks very similar to the Avid in Reno

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Posted

How about this one as an option? Needs a little TLC, but all the right parts are there...

Kitfox IV - $18k - 912UL

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Posted

How about this one as an option? Needs a little TLC, but all the right parts are there...

Kitfox IV - $18k - 912UL

Gotta be honest, I'm an automotive technician with very little experience working on aircraft. Not sure I feel comfortable finishing out an aircraft. Not that I can't, just not sure I would trust myself

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Posted

X3... A 582 powered Kitfox that sold for 20K would shock me. 5 years ago maybe but not in today's market. I'm thinking that guys wife told him to sell it so he put a stupid price on it so he could keep it and tell her no one wanted it.

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Posted

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming, what could I sell the EA81 for, maybe as a FWF package and install a Rotax 912 or 914UL. I've been told atleast $25,000 to do the Rotax conversion which is definitely out of my budget at this moment but might be food for thought in the future.

From my quick calculations it would increase useful load from around 70-100lbs which would make a substancial increase in performance solo and dual with no decrease in HP and the fuel burn should remain around the same.

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way? Would it be possible to mount the radiatior anywhere else? I've heard of the cowl being modified to mount the radiator up front and reduce alot of drag.

Thoughts, experience?

The Stratus EA-81 sells new for about $9K - I've seen them sell used for as little as $2500 With a Warp Drive prop. To convert to a 912 would be worse than buying one with no engine, IMO.

The Stratus used to come with cheek radiators - dont know about now.

I dont see an increase of 70 to 100 lbs by going with the 912 - maybe 40 lbs?

either of them are good 4-stroke engines - the Soob is far cheaper to fix or replace.

ED in MO

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Posted

RMendler (?) Helps to have a first name at least to refer to you by, just went and did a search on Barnstormers for Kitfoxes, and did see someone had an E81 engine from a kitfox for $2000. Didn't read the add to get the specifics, but that might help to answer your question about what you could sell one for. Take care, Jim Chuk

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Posted (edited)

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming,

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way?

Thoughts, experience?

Roy,

I think you are being confused on the engine rpm and prop adjustments - A higher cruise would mean more pitch on the prop and a LOWER static rpm for the engine - Yes, more runway needed. I dont think you are going to see a significant increase in cruise anyway - these planes, except for the later Kitfoxes, have about a 100 mph wall because of the wing rib shape. There was a guy who put VGs UNDER the leading edge and claimed a 10 mph increase in cruise, but we cant verify that. If you arent going long distances, 5 or 10 mph wont make much difference anyway. Probably more important, is short takeoffs?

Presuming that this plane has a 3-blade Warp Drive prop, you could replace the blades with Whirlwind blades for about $900 and maybe gain some cruise. Suberavid just did a test with his Soob with these blades. He liked them.

OR, you could go with the Ivo in-flight-adjustable prop and probably get a little more cruise and still have short takeoffs, unless you are sport pilot or flying without medical and have to stay with ground-adjustable prop.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

Ed in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Roy,

I think you are being confused on the engine rpm and prop adjustments - A higher cruise would mean more pitch on the prop and a LOWER static rpm for the engine - Yes, more runway needed. I dont think you are going to see a significant increase in cruise anyway - these planes, except for the later Kitfoxes, have about a 100 mph wall because of the wing rib shape. There was a guy who put VGs UNDER the leading edge and claimed a 10 mph increase in cruise, but we cant verify that. If you arent going long distances, 5 or 10 mph wont make much difference anyway. Probably more important, is short takeoffs?

Presuming that this plane has a 3-blade Warp Drive prop, you could replace the blades with Whirlwind blades for about $900 and maybe gain some cruise. Suberavid just did a test with his Soob with these blades. He liked them.

OR, you could go with the Ivo in-flight-adjustable prop and probably get a little more cruise and still have short takeoffs, unless you are sport pilot or flying without medical and have to stay with ground-adjustable prop.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

Ed in MO

Private Pilot helicopter and fixed-wing and sorry guys the name is Richard, thought I posted that. The in-flight adjustable prop is alot more like what I am used to with the constant-speeds and even the helicopters.

My uncle says no to this airplane, he has alot of time and experience and he bases that opinion based on the damage history, but if the aircraft has been rebuilt by Airdale I can't imaging the manufacturer wouldnt repair it properly.

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Posted

Just jumping back to the empty weight. I really doubt the stated empty weight with the subaru and all the mods is as low as they are saying. My stock engine Ea81 mark IV heavy hauler comes in well over 700 plus weight on the back for cg depending if it's on wheels or floats. With just me and full fuel it needs 500 feet to think about getting of the ground. (2200 msl) Best climb is 800 fpm. Likes to cruise at 70 with engine turning 4000. (1.84:1 reduction.) Still playing with prop pitch for the best tradeoff. The beauty of the sube is cheap reliability. I'm not sure if the airdale stretch eliminates the added weight needed for cg with the sube. Either way check that empty weight.

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Posted

I just went and took another look at the Avid with the 912. That is actually a speedwing, the add says he has the wing extentions, and when I read that, I looked a bit closer on the pictures. Wings have a flat bottom. Not that good for STOL operations with the short wingspan. Wing extentions help though. Not sure if they will equal a standard STOL or Heavy Hauler wing for STOL performance though. If the washout isn't to much with the extentions on, that would help cruise speeds though compared to the undercambered wing. If you really want to get somewhere, the short wings would be the ticket. Just my 2 cents worth. YMMV Take care, Jim Chuk

Roy,

I think you are being confused on the engine rpm and prop adjustments - A higher cruise would mean more pitch on the prop and a LOWER static rpm for the engine - Yes, more runway needed. I dont think you are going to see a significant increase in cruise anyway - these planes, except for the later Kitfoxes, have about a 100 mph wall because of the wing rib shape. There was a guy who put VGs UNDER the leading edge and claimed a 10 mph increase in cruise, but we cant verify that. If you arent going long distances, 5 or 10 mph wont make much difference anyway. Probably more important, is short takeoffs?

Presuming that this plane has a 3-blade Warp Drive prop, you could replace the blades with Whirlwind blades for about $900 and maybe gain some cruise. Suberavid just did a test with his Soob with these blades. He liked them.

OR, you could go with the Ivo in-flight-adjustable prop and probably get a little more cruise and still have short takeoffs, unless you are sport pilot or flying without medical and have to stay with ground-adjustable prop.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

Ed in MO

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Posted

Just jumping back to the empty weight. I really doubt the stated empty weight with the subaru and all the mods is as low as they are saying. My stock engine Ea81 mark IV heavy hauler comes in well over 700 plus weight on the back for cg depending if it's on wheels or floats. With just me and full fuel it needs 500 feet to think about getting of the ground. (2200 msl) Best climb is 800 fpm. Likes to cruise at 70 with engine turning 4000. (1.84:1 reduction.) Still playing with prop pitch for the best tradeoff. The beauty of the sube is cheap reliability. I'm not sure if the airdale stretch eliminates the added weight needed for cg with the sube. Either way check that empty weight.

The owner just emailed me the weight and balance that was just completed on the Avid after the Airdale repair and mods.

Empty weight with the EA81 is 743lbs. Heavier then before and the 16" extension eliminates the need for counterweights.

I was also told takeoffs are around 500 feet solo w/ full fuel and 700 feet dual with as much fuel as possible. Those numbers sound more realistic.

Cruise is 80mph indicated according to the owner.

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Posted

Again everyone, thanks for the help and suggestions, even if it has made the decision more difficult. I appreciate the input!

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Posted (edited)

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming, what could I sell the EA81 for, maybe as a FWF package and install a Rotax 912 or 914UL. I've been told atleast $25,000 to do the Rotax conversion which is definitely out of my budget at this moment but might be food for thought in the future.

From my quick calculations it would increase useful load from around 70-100lbs which would make a substancial increase in performance solo and dual with no decrease in HP and the fuel burn should remain around the same.

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way? Would it be possible to mount the radiatior anywhere else? I've heard of the cowl being modified to mount the radiator up front and reduce alot of drag.

Thoughts, experience?

$25k? Umm, maybe if you purchase a brand new 912ul with every Rotax accessory available, do zero part scavenging or reuse and pay someone top dollar to do all the work. Heck, for $25k you can buy a flying Avid or Kitfox with a 912ul FWF...

Seems like you have talked yourself into purchasing the white/yellow Avid because of the Airdale mods or because you feel it may be closest to turnkey with no work involved or whatever reason. Fine, fly it as is and save your funds then buy a new or used 912ul to swap out the Sube. Just understand, while the Sube might be a perfectly good choice in a stretched Avid or Avid+, the reality is that the weight generally precludes it's use in a non-stretched Avid or Kitfox so they simply don't bring much at resale to our crowd. And while you do gain certain benefits, having the powerplant offering the best STOL performance and useable payload for the (stretched or not) Avid or Kitfox airframe are not one of them.

My personal opinion is that all the Airdale mods to that Avid Mk-IV can not compensate for the engine and airfoil limitations. The airfoil and mixer improvements on the KF4 and higher are that good. As mentioned, the Avid wing will hit an aerodynamic wall at ~100mph while the Riblett airfoil on the KF4+ will give you 20mph more. No amount of speed fairings, gap seals and VGs will get you over the wall in the Avid.** The 912ul has repeatedly been called the best overall engine for a KF4. The same could be said for the Avid Mm-IV I suspect, but not many flying examples due to the absence of factory FWF support. The Kitfox resale prices reflect all of that, plus -much- better parts availability and factory support.

Just be advised, if you want a flying KF4 w/912ul you MUST be prepared to pounce immediately and give up any thoughts of finding a bargain through the classifieds. If it is flying and a top example of work and craftsmanship, it might as well be the Holy Grail. They don't come around often and when they do, it's not unusual for a good one to sell in only a day or two at full asking price. Including prices that are guaranteed to raise more than a few eyebrows. Best deals are always found word of mouth in the off season and will require varying degrees of time and expense to return to airworthy. For some reason, there are not as many Avid or Kitfox aircraft advertised east of the Mississippi as there are out west.

If a 912ul powered Avid or Kitfox is your goal, perhaps the quickest path to ownership and lowest out of pocket cost would be to buy a KF4-1200 w/582. They are (in many's opinion) underpowered for the empty weight and therefore not terribly desirable, so they typically do not attract the 'buy now, ask questions later' shopper with more money than brains and normally sell relatively cheap), find a used 912ul to swap FWF and sell off the 582. Much bigger market for a 582 vs. Sube and you'll likely get as much or more $ on resale for the Rotax 2-stroke. FWIW, I sold the 69hr 582 Blue Head with a few accessories off my wrecked KF3 for $4,750 (and that was a good enough deal for the buyer to come from 3 states away).

Keep the faith and have patience. I looked actively for 4 years before finding my KF4-1200 w/912ul 170hrs. It's a solid, quality build by an A&P, but seats need replaced and the fabric work and paint is probably only a 7 or 8 out of 10. It was an estate sale that sat for a few years and, after pointing out numerous issues to the seller and documented costs to repair, I paid $17,250 delivered to my door, down from the $22,500 asking price. I put ~$1000 and a winter's worth of sweat equity into it before I felt it was ready for a return to service. Could easily add another $2k had I replaced the wing tanks, but I'm holding off as the availability of ethanol free premium auto gas locally has gotten much better and a little Decalin goes a long ways. Admittedly, a very good deal, but more proof good things often come to those who wait. Good luck.

** [edit: with the under cambered HH or STOL airfoil, the 912ul powered Mk-IV Speedwing Jim looked at would probably hit VNE without the wing extensions. Leni said he flew a flat bottom wing with extensions and it performed quite similar to his long HH wing Avid C. If I was set on a 912ul powered Avid Mk-IV or KF4, I would take a hard look and test the price waters on that Speedwing with extensions. Even if you find a lot of twist with the wing extentions installed, build or buy a set of HH wings. Might be able to have three different wing configurations and better utility for less than the cost of a KF4 w/912ul.]

Edited by dholly

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Posted (edited)

The thing I am stuck on is the lack of these aircraft for sale. Wish I had some more variety to look at.

Either way I am going to look at and fly the 582 Kitfox IV in VA next Monday.

I may also be stopping in Raleigh NC to look at an almost completed Avid Mark IV with a 582.

We will see how that goes and how I enjoy flying the one in VA

Edited by RMendler

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Posted

Yes I flew a buddies MkIV with the extended "speed wings" and mine side by side multiple times in the course of a few days. I could get his in and out just as short, climb just as well and stall within a couple MPH of my C HH. The only real difference was his had a quicker roll rate and just felt a little more "sporty" Maybe that was due to him having 8.50s and I had heavy goodyear 24s on mine. What ever the reason, it was enough to make me want to build a set of speed wings to HH specs and extend them to the KF wing length... It may just be easier to get a set of kitfox IV -1200 wings and build them.. but what fun would it be to build from a kit when I can scrounge and build on my own :lol:

:BC:

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Posted (edited)

The very first ride I ever had in and Avid was built a bit different. It had the long wings, but with the speedwing (flat bottom) ribs. That plane flew great, and the owner flew it to Oshkosh quite a few times with other Avids. He said it would cruise way faster than the others at the same RPM. About 15 MPH at the same RPM. He also had cleaned up the plane dragwise where ever he could as well. I was new to these planes then, but it seemed to get out very well at take off. Dough, I have to agree with you about good deals come by rarely. I've seen several and was tempted, but you have to act fast or they go to someone else. If I ever get busy and finish my Kitfox 4 with the 912 on it then I will have one. Other wise, how many airplanes should one man have.... 3 Avids, 2 Kitfoxes at the moment, only one flying. Glad I've got a good-make that WONDERFUL wife. Well I came in to check for any TFRs couse I'm off to get some skiflying time in with a friend and now spent a bunch of time here. Take Care, Jim Chuk

PS well we shot a bunch of landings on a lake, 2.2 hrs. He recently got his Private ticket in a C. 172 He used to fly a lot with me in my other Avid before he started taking lessons in the Cessna. He's got to learn to fly the Avid all over again :) . I keep taping the ball, he forgot how to use his feet with the Cessna. We're working on getting him his tailwheel endorsement. He'll get there!

Yes I flew a buddies MkIV with the extended "speed wings" and mine side by side multiple times in the course of a few days. I could get his in and out just as short, climb just as well and stall within a couple MPH of my C HH. The only real difference was his had a quicker roll rate and just felt a little more "sporty" Maybe that was due to him having 8.50s and I had heavy goodyear 24s on mine. What ever the reason, it was enough to make me want to build a set of speed wings to HH specs and extend them to the KF wing length... It may just be easier to get a set of kitfox IV -1200 wings and build them.. but what fun would it be to build from a kit when I can scrounge and build on my own :lol:/>/>

:BC:/>/>

Edited by Jim Chuk

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Posted (edited)

so out of curiosity, looking at this aircraft:

http://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=705287

what should I expect in regards to performance? I have a new weight and balance with the grove gear installed and the aircraft weighs in at 628.10 empty.

14 gallon tank w/ optional 4 gallon header tank. Unsure of prop brand but it is new, not rebuilt with a balanced spinner.

So using the W&B forms I was given for this aircraft, myself (solo) with full fuel and no baggage would only weigh 926.10 pounds with the CG well within limits.

Any estimations on cruise, takeoff and landing distances?

Edited by RMendler

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Posted

If history is a guide, you will start seeing more For Sale ads pop up as winter passes. You could possible get a jump on the competition by posting a Want To Buy ad on Barnstormers, etc.

Also, did you see this one on Craigslist? >>> LINK

AIRCRAFT AVID FLYER - $19900 (PAYSON AZ)

Avid heavy hauler, 125hp subaru turbo completely rebuilt,o hours, all new engine parts,perf cam balanced metal leading edge on win gs Rocky Mt. engine management panel radios mode c 3 blade prop airflow fuel injection dual mallory ing. dual batteries dual electric fuel pumps HD landing gear custom built trailer, folding wings, have all in process photo,s all manuals plane is ready to fly, aprox 300 hr on airframe need to sell asap !!
1505 n langley (
) (
)

  • Location: PAYSON AZ
  • it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

Posting ID: 3581841353

Posted: 2013-01-30, 8:53AM MST

Edited: 2013-01-30, 2:16PM MST

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Posted

Richard, the owner of that plane is not realistic on price no matter what the performance. It should be a 85 mph plane with a 500-700 fpm climb. T/O and landing will be under 750' depending on the million other variables.

The plane I posted to earlier is a fine example of what Doug was referring to. A well equipped, maybe visually challenged flying airplane with all the right parts present.

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Posted (edited)

Richard, the owner of that plane is not realistic on price no matter what the performance. It should be a 85 mph plane with a 500-700 fpm climb. T/O and landing will be under 750' depending on the million other variables.

The plane I posted to earlier is a fine example of what Doug was referring to. A well equipped, maybe visually challenged flying airplane with all the right parts present.

I know he wants way too much. Thought about making him a counter offer. I highly doubt he will back of $6k though

The link to craigslist is intriguing. 125hp Subaru engine? interesting. Still a heavy engine though which is the problem I'm seeing. no payload. can anyone elaborate on the turbo subaru engine? Very nice looking aircraft.

Edited by RMendler

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Posted

haha funny story, i had called a gentlemen requesting pics of his aircraft and i just got them. just so happens to be the same craigslist aircraft link you guys just gave me. his add has no pics on barnstormers so i called

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Posted (edited)

the same one listed before. The thing I don't like is the 1,050 max gross.

what would the useful load be with the 912? 500lbs or so?

buying a project scares me too, im not looking to put time into an aircraft i dont have. im on the road to much

Edited by RMendler

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Posted

the same one listed before. The thing I don't like is the 1,050 max gross.

what would the useful load be with the 912? 500lbs or so?

Been listed and re-listed at least once IIRC. Must have issues.

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