NEW FARBIC - NO PAINT?

48 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Just got my SA rag for this month, and on page 15 at the bottom there is a half-assed note about a new fab from Germany - ORATEX600 - Also called "BetterAircraftFabric". Supposedly, no paint needed and non-toxic, adverse-weather resistant, etc.

Unfortunately, no contact info is given.

Maybe some puter-smart member could do some research on the new "miracle"?

ED in MO

Now I see in the title that I cant spel FABRIC.......

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Hi Ed if you type in the ORATEX600 in your search baror google there is a ton of information that pops up, some guy cover his super cub in and figured the cost to be around $9000 . Not sure what the noemal cost of covering a complete plane is but sounds like alot less labour and was saying 20- 30% lighter. Sounds interesting

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Posted (edited)

$9K for a Cub is RE-DIK-U-LESS, IMO!

We just covered a Cub for under 2K, with a Super paint job, and I thought that was High.
ED IN MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

It is about the same stuff that we have been using to cover model airplanes for years.  Iron on and go, no painting no fuel proofing needed.  I dont have any experience with the heavier cloth stuff that they are using for the full scale planes though..

 

:BC:

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Posted (edited)

There was a plane we judged on the ultralight field at Airventure last year with this stuff on it.

Looked pretty nice, like a good Aerothane paint job. Pretty spendy though and very little track record in the field of full sized planes.

Edited by Av8r3400

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Posted

Rans offers one of its planes with standard fabric, and an optional envelope fabric that does not need to be painted - this may be that material - but the cost is too high for me to use, if $9K to cover a Cub is correct.

Ed in MO

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Posted

The other option from Rans is Dacron sail cloth. Same as the old style ultralights used. I have two friends with this option on S6s. You can see through it. No thanks.

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Posted

I spent quite some time chatting with the German supplier of Oratex at OSH this year. They had a vendor spot in one of the main exhibition buildings and the US supplier had another tent in the ultralight vendor area. Between the talks, several instructional videos, hands on exams and the Oratex600-covered Kitfox 4-1200 on display, this covering system is a -very- serious contender for my Avid+. I might even consider a possible re-cover of my KF4 with the stuff, something I would not have given a second thought to because of the painting involved. Once this fabric is shrunk, all UV and top color is already done... and it looks GREAT like a high dollar two stage poly job. Less time and expense than Poly or Stewarts. Brilliant! http://www.betteraircraftfabric.com/

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Posted (edited)

Doug,

What about prices - per yard? - per Plane? Envelope or blanket?

How is this stuff attached?

ED

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

I too spent quite a bit of time looking over the Kitfox at the Oratex booth in the UL area.  Honestly I was not that impressed by the covering job done on the Kitfox.  The product is quite impressive.  They could have spent more time doing a better job covering half the plane than rushing a crappy job on the whole thing.

 

If a guy were to cover the plane in a single color or single color per major part (fuselage, wing, tail, etc.), then use vinyl graphics over the single color for accent.  

 

Trying to two tone the fuselage in the way they did, did not look very good, IMO.

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Posted

I wish someone would have taken some photos of the Kitfox to post on here.

EDMO

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Posted

Larry - initially, Russ and I thought the same. However, conversation with the guys revealed the Kitfox covering job was not finished. IIRC, two guys applied what you saw in about 10 hours in anticipation of the show so the US distributor could have some sort of large scale static display. Again, after spending quite a bit of talk time, particularly with the German Co. owner, I only came away with two potential negatives: First is that both the receiving part (such as a rib capstrip) and the underside of the fabric had to have one coat of the water-based, heat activated glue applied. That meant you had to cut, place and clamp the fabric in place to mark the attach points so you knew where to apply the underside-of-the-fabric glue before shrinking. Not as easy as activating the Polytac through Polyfiber after shrinking IMHO. Second had to do with patch procedure. Specifically, patches need to be made structure to structure, Rib to rib or tube to tube. This will require the removal and reapplication of adjoining finishing tapes to prevent a built-up look. The current glue (2nd gen) is much more tenacious that it's predecessor and finishing tapes can not be peeled off without destroying the fabric underneath. It can, as was demonstrated to me, be carefully peeled away leaving the under fabric intact with just the right amount of heat and pressure. The glue is so tenacious, once applied to capstrips and fuselage tubing, it is near impossible to remove. The parent co. guy said they are in the process of testing solvent combinations that would work with the additional application of heat, and that the best success to date came from a combo of nail polish remover and something else along with the heat. I have two of the fabric/glue samples they were handing out and was going to do a test using one of my old damaged Aerotrek wings. I'll let y'all know.

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Posted

Doug,

I'm sure that we can figure out how to put the glue on the fabric.

My main concern is the COST, and how does it compare to the old method?

EDMO

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Posted

~20% less cost, appreciably less labor, no toxics

 

I wish someone would have taken some photos of the Kitfox to post on here.
EDMO

 

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Posted (edited)

I will go for "less labor, no toxins", but what do you figure it is "20% less than"?

$1000? $800?

And - I watched the repair video too - showing how their colored patches go on like duct tape, with glue already on them.

EDMO

Added: I went to the site <betteraircraftfabric.com> and it talked about Oratex 600 for "Ultralights", 3000 and 6000 for "airplanes" - each number is the KILOS that the plane weighs - Wonder which they covered the Kitfox with? Guess it was the 6000, since the sign has that on it?

and - NO prices in the catalog, or where to order a REAL catalog - I downloaded the PDF, and that was no help on prices.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted (edited)

Hello Ed, i had some good callings with Siegfried Lanitz the owner. One part of Oratex is, that you can repair the fabrik realy easy. A man in alaska coverd his plane with oratex. He must land on stones an had every landing damages and wholes in his ruder because of normal fabrik. Now with oratex 6000 he had no problems with stones. Write a email for the price to Siegfried, and you will get a answer, maybe he call you back. Martin

 

Email to Siegfried Lanitz:  https://www.oracover.de/index.php?content=contactus

Edited by Flugtaxi

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Posted

Hi Martin,

Thanks for writing. There is a video on the repair patches for the Oratex, showing them already to stick on a hole without doing anything else.

I am thinking that the Oratex costs too much for me, but I have a sample coming.

Good Flying,

EDMO

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Posted

Ed, re: your PM-

 

I have no hard and fast number(s) from Oratex. Neither the manufacturer or U.S. distributor had a material and/or price list specific to an Avid or Kitfox when I spoke to them at OSH last year. As mentioned, I was told the entire Oratex covering system for that size plane would be ~20% less than the Poly Fiber system through top coat.

 

I have attached the Avid/Kitfox materials list and price quote I picked up at the Poly Fiber booth in OSH a few years ago that shows $2470 for their complete covering system and supply kit. Take 20% off that and it comes to $1976. Dunno how accurate that is but maybe it can provide some price guidance for you absent an exact number from the Oratex guys.

 

Also, to provide a bit of comparison, I've attached a materials list and cost estimate obtained from AirTech to recover and paint a set of Kitfox wings only with their system and products at a cost of ~$2100. They provided all the items and measures.

 

Finally, I bought new Poly Fiber products from ACS in sufficient quantity to recover my Aerotrek wings and repair a portion of the fuselage fabric we had to cut for welding access -up to but not including top color- for $1541.25 + $81.28 = $1622.53. Here is the actual breakdown:

 

(1) 09-03700 STITS REINFORCING TAPE 1/2" @ 57.90 = $57.90
(1) 09-03810 STITS RIB LACING BRAIDED FLAT @ 45.50 = 45.50
(1) 09-03100 POLY-FIBER P-106 3" TAPE 25YD @ 27.80 = 27.80
(1) 09-03400 POLY-FIBER P-106 4" TAPE 25YD @ 32.40 = 32.40
(3) 09-41010 C102 STRAIGHT TAPE 1" 50YD@ 21.35 = 64.05
(3) 09-02700 POLY-FIBER P-106 2" TAPE 50YD @ 30.20 = 90.60
(12) 09-19200 INSPECTION RING @ 0.55 = 6.60
(1) 09-18710 RIB STITCH NEEDLE 6" CURVED @ 2.45 = 2.45
(1) 09-18725 RIB STITCH NEEDLE 12" STRAIGHT @ 4.40 = 4.40
(100) DRAIN GROMMETS FLAT AN231-2 @ 0.153 = 15.30
(25) 09-01600 STITS FABRIC P-103 MEDIUM 72" @ 11.95 = 298.75
(3) 09-04800 POLYFIBER REDUCER R65-75 GAL @ 47.75 = 143.25
(4) 09-04500 POLY-FIBER POLY-SPRAY GAL @ 83.60 = 334.40
(4) 09-04200 P/F POLY-BRUSH **TINTED** GAL @ 85.00 = 340.00

(2) 09-05000 POLY-FIBER POLY-TAK CEMENT QT @ 27.50 = 55.00
(1) 09-28250 POLY-FIBER SUPERFIL EPOXY A&B @ 22.85 = 22.85
(1) 01-38400 2012 - 2013 CATALOG

 

I still need 2-3 gals of custom tinted polyurethane topcoat + flex additive, reducer and activator to paint this year, Lord knows what that will run but I gotta do it to stay S-LSA rule compliant to the Aeropro CV Repair Manual. All in all, I figure I'll have close to $2000 in this project.

 

I dunno how you worked your Poly Fiber material list and cost numbers on the other Oratex thread you started. If cost is your #1 priority, and you can indeed do a complete and satisfactory Poly Fiber cover and paint job on your Foxy Flapper for less than $1000, my hat is off to you.

AirTechWingCoveringEstimate.pdf

PolyFiberCoverCost.pdf

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Posted (edited)

Thanx Doug,

     Right now my priority is my lungs - cost will be #2 factor - Quality is #3 - not building a showplane - paint roller good enough!  Can get paint at wholesale price.

 I guesstimated 35 yards for a Kitfox.?  Stewarts glue and UV coat - cheap Randolph paint or similar.

Guessing tho, to spend extra and go with the Oratex 6000.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

If you are after cheap have you considered Latex paint applied with a roller, Not really pretty but they seem to be holding up on the ultralights.

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Posted

Yes, I have seen the latex painting process - don't think I have to go that cheap!

Thanks,

EdMO

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Posted

In talking to Lars about the Oratex prices he is always a little elusive since he is afraid to quote any prices with the always changing exchange rate.  The best Jack and I could figure is that the 20% less cost is vs. paying for the materials for both plus paying someone to paint your plane for you if you were to use Polyfiber/ Stewarts, etc.  The standard fabric width is a little different than the conventional fabric comes in as well.  I can't find my notes on it so will have to try to get this info from Lars at teh next EAA meeting.  If I remember right, $9000 to cover a cub was about right.

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Posted

Wow...

 

I just bought all the stuff I need to Poly Fiber my Mangy Fox including paint (Poly Tone) for $2500.  

 

I may need some more minor stuff, tapes, maybe another can of Poly Spray, etc. but really $9000 for this stuff?!  For a product with no proven track record?  That is insane.

 

 

 

No thanks.

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Posted (edited)

I cant believe $9K for a cub, unless he paid someone to do the covering.

If we could get a price range - say $30 to $35 per yard/meter, it would at least let us know if it is possible,

or Re-dick-u-less!  Even at $30 a yard, the fabric would be about $1200 for a Cub, plus the glue and tapes.

An Avid should be less than that - and no UV coats, paint, thinner, etc., to buy!

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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