Newbee, Wanabee, ...

[JLyons 0]

OK,

Name is Jason, new to the forum and new to flying. But not new to life, at 53, it's about time to get going at it, flying I mean.

I posted somewhere else on the forum and can't find my post. Maybe I did not complete it, I don't know.

Anyhow, I am just in the process of buying a scrapped plane, it's being sold for parts although it does fly, and supposedly well.

For some reason out of control, it is being sold for parts. I intend to strip it down to the lowest point I can, nuts and bolts. And rebuild this plane.

If I do this, is it feasible to think that I can meet the 51% rule and get the plane registered. Any advise from the more experienced is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

JL

[C5Engineer 1170]

OK,

Name is Jason, new to the forum and new to flying. But not new to life, at 53, it's about time to get going at it, flying I mean.

I posted somewhere else on the forum and can't find my post. Maybe I did not complete it, I don't know.

Anyhow, I am just in the process of buying a scrapped plane, it's being sold for parts although it does fly, and supposedly well.

For some reason out of control, it is being sold for parts. I intend to strip it down to the lowest point I can, nuts and bolts. And rebuild this plane.

If I do this, is it feasible to think that I can meet the 51% rule and get the plane registered. Any advise from the more experienced is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

JL

Yes but if it already has an N number and airworthiness certficate on file you'll have to go through the process to scrap it with the FAA. Once any and all previous documentation is gone and you rebuild the airplane then you'll have to do ALL the paperwork over again to register it, get it inspected, and have it issued an Airworthiness cert. This will also put it back into Phase I testing and it will require to have 40hrs flown off it. The process is not difficult but it's tedious and time consuming. I would recommend joining the EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association). Find a chapter close to you and start hanging out with them and ask lots of questions. The EAA's website has lots of great information on the process as well.

 

Post up some information about your project and we love pictures around here! Welcome to Avid Fox Flyers!!

[akflyer 1427]

Welcome aboard!

 

What kind of plane is it.  If it was previously registered, and was sold for "parts" then you should not have an issue getting it registered again.  Was this an experimental plane or certified?  Since your posting it here, I am going to guess its an avid or kitfox type, but you know what happens when you assume something

 

If it was a certified plane, it is damn near impossible to rebuild one and meet the 51% rule.  If its experimental, it should be easy, but you probably wont get the repairmans cert for it to do your own "condition inspections"

 

[akflyer 1427]

damnit!  Joey is on top of this one all the way from the sand box across the pond!  you must be bored over there already

 

[JLyons 0]

Wow, quick replies, Thank you very much.

The plane is an early Avid, I don't want to say too much about the specific plane, I have an appointment to view it tomorrow. I will most likely buy it.

The plane is listed as valid on the FAA website, but the current owner is selling it without logs, dataplate or AW certificate.

It will be a lot of work, but I will know that plane when I am done. I just want to make sure I will be able to register it, and get it flying.

Thanks

JL

[JLyons 0]

the 40 hour flight test stage was mentioned, Naturally I would want an experienced test pilot to fly the first few hours, can I fly the remainder of those hours if I am comfortable with it at that point?

[C5Engineer 1170]

Sure as long as you are current as a Private Pilot and have a tail wheel endorsement if its a tail dragger. I flew mine for the very first time after sitting for 16 years and a complete rebuild. What a rush that was!!

[C5Engineer 1170]

damnit! Joey is on top of this one all the way from the sand box across the pond! you must be bored over there already

If I am not mistaken your at work there too Mr!

[JLyons 0]

Since the plane is an Avid, it is a Light Sport, what if I am a Light Sport Pilot?

[akflyer 1427]

Your good to go as a sport pilot also.  As long as your current you can fly the hours off... The amount of hours needed for the fly off will be up to the DAR or local FSDO inspector who comes out to look at the plane.  They could give you UP TO 40 hrs to fly it off, but since it has had a previous AW cert, you should be able to talk them into less flight time.  One of our guys just got a 25 hr fly off on a BRAND NEW PLANE!

 

You should not have to to a rebuild on it, as long as the plane is in current airworthy condition!  I would call your local DAR or FSDO and explain to them the senario, they should be able to tell you stright up what you need to do to get it in the air.

 

If your a low time pilot, and no tail dragger time, you are going to want to get some instruction in the plane.  As long as it is in Phase 1 testing, you cant get instrustion in that plane, but you can get a local guy to fly the hours off for you.  That is what one of our members here did, then he went straight to flight instruction in his plane and got signed off to solo in it QUICK! 

 

[EDMO 1078]

If you can get the original builder's notebook, and building photos to show it was amateur-built, then you wont need to rebuild it. Talk to DAR on this.

I am sure that the reason you are buying it for "parts" is liability issues with the seller.

Welcome to the AvidFoxFlyers - any questions you post will surely get answered - maybe in many ways.

EDMO

[JLyons 0]

I called the FAA today, They were very helpful, called me back right away.

According to the FAA people are not allowed to sell airplanes without the data and AW placards, there was actually 4 documents he mentioned.

If they were lost somehow, some of them can be replaced because the FAA has that information. But since the previous owner is concerned about liability, that angle does not accomplish what he intends.

And once an airplane has been registered it cannot be rebuilt in order to make someone else the builder. You cannot use used parts to satisfy the 51% rule.

I would have to use it as a pattern and build new parts, that's a lot of work.

So looks like I have to look for another plane...

 

(

 

JL

[EDMO 1078]

Call the EAA - They have some attorney-produced documents which, I THINK, limit the liability of the builder / seller. You need to belong anyway. Maybe you can get the seller involved and change the manner of the deal?

You cannot change the name of the builder on the data/documents according to FAA.

EDMO

Edited 10 Jun 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[Av8r3400 1178]

To date there has never been a successful lawsuit against an amature builder who has sold a plane.

This is all just lawyer fostered paranoia, unfortunately.

As to the ability to disassemble then reassembly a plane to satisfy the 51% rule: good luck with that too. Been there tried that. I'll pay an A&P $50 to do a "conditional inspection" every year on my Mangy-Fox. Much less hassle.

[EDMO 1078]

Don't know how I am going to come out with the FAA on mine - I built it from scratch as a tail-dragger, but never licensed it - wrecked it when it fell off of trailer in the Yukon - then rebuilt/repaired it as a nose-dragger again in Missouri - Lost all the original logs and photos - started new ones from scratch - Guess I will know when I finish it and get ready to license?

Wonder if there is a section for "twice-built" by EDMO

Edited 11 Jun 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[Av8r3400 1178]

If it was never inspected and certificated, it never existed to the FAA. You should have no problems...

[EDMO 1078]

If it was never inspected and certificated, it never existed to the FAA. You should have no problems...

I sure hope not - I still have the receipt where I bought the tubing, etc. in 1997, but no photos of scratch-building fuselage and wings - only mod and repairs to them. Keeping fingers crossed. I also lost all the photos of scratch-building the KF1 Clone fuselage that I still have for sale - but they approve 51% when KF builds the fuselage, so mine should not be any different.

Thanks,

EDMO

Edited 11 Jun 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[RDavidson 183]

JL,

If the FAA said that you can't sell a plane without the AW cert or data plate, does that mean that if it is sold to you it is still considered AW?

If so, the FAA has everything on file about the aircraft. You should be able to get a copy of the AW cert from them and some background files from them. I found that they often do not keep phase one paperwork on file.

As for the data plate...you make a new one.

The only forms to fill out would be a transfer of ownership and registration. Maybe that is the hang up...maybe without the previous owners signature you can't transfer the registration.

I'm sure there is a way to do it, it is just a matter of finding THE way.

I noticed that different FSDOs will tell you different things, so hopefully you have a big picture FSDO.

You are finding out why some "good deals" might be "bad deals"! Nothing like buying an expensive lawn ornament!

You should only pay what you could get out of selling the aircraft in parts as a maximum.

Good luck,

Ron

[C5Engineer 1170]

Sounds eerily similair to my nightmare. I had to track down 3 or 4 people for my registration trail. It took me a full year to get my plane registered in my name. It had been issued a temp AW cert for it's Phase I testing but it expired 6 mos after it was issued. I guess that's how they did it back in the 90s. The original builder didn't ever apply for the permanent certificate so according to the FAA it wasn't airworthy. I had to reapply for everything and have it re inspected and put back into Phase I again. Wish I knew then what I know now and it would have a different tail number and I would be the builder. Oh well like Larry I pay an A&P buddy for my inspection every year. My thoughts are it's good to have a third party look at my plane once in a while anyways.

 

What was really cool was when the original builder and owner contacted me via a forum like this out of the blue one day after seeing pictures of it on the web. He was thrilled to have found it 16 years later and find out it was being restored and being flown the way an Avid is supposed to be flown.