New member intro

[C5Engineer 1170]

New member here. Finally a proper Avid/Kitfox forum. Wish I would have found this a while ago. There's lots of great information on the Yahoo groups but I HATE the way it works. Forums are so much better and easier to share information with. I wish we could get all those guys over here.

I'm a C-5 Flight Engineer in the AirForce and I've got a C model Avid with a 582. NSI Subaru used this airplane as a prototype to hang their 108HP engine on it in the 90's. It had that along with a 40lb steel plate under the tailwheel when my Dad and I got ahold of it. It never flew because it weighed about 700lbs empty. We found a guy that upgraded to a Jab so I bought his FWF off him. Dean Wilson himself did my firewall forward. I was fortunate to live 30 minutes from him. The airplane has not flown since 1993 and I'm in the process of recovering the wings right now. The rest is ready to go. It's been a long project but I'm hoping to be in the air by April. Here are a few pics of it before I tore it apart and then of the restoration work.

This is why you uncover old airplanes. This was what I found when I uncovered the horizontal stab.

Many hours of prep work and making sure the metal was sound and it looked like this

Least my A&P has a sense of humor

Got new bungees straight from Airdale. They are much better than the 15 year old junk that was on there

And finally a shot of my office and my ride to work

[akflyer 1427]

welcome aboard.    Hope you brought your sense of humor with you.  I think alot of the guys on the other list dont like it here cause it is not just strictly airplane talk.  I put this up as a place to hang out and BS have fun, and talk planes when we need to.

Nice work on the rebuild!  I am taking your A&P's sign, re-printing it and putting it up on my office door!  Is that a Mk IV engine mount?  It does not look like my "C" mount.  Keep hammering away at it, these are very fun planes to fly.  Do you have any time in an Avid or KF?  If you want to come play in AK let me know, you should be able to get a MAC flight so it would be a free vacation!

I got a ride in a C5 out to Johnston Atoll in 99 or 2000.  Nice way to travel!  I used to live above Barbers point NAS and my living room window was eye level with the final approach into Hickam AFB.  I would sit on the deck doing 12 oz curls and watch the P3's going into BP NAS and every concievable plane going into Hickam.  The C5 is so damn big that it looks like it is going very slow and is ready to fall out of the sky.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Hey thanks for the welcome! I spend quite a bit of time on forums for my various hobbies so I know the drill. I help moderate a Toyota 4x4 site that has over 10,000 members and upwards of a 1000 posts a day. I'd love to come fly my Avid up in AK. We go into Fairbanks and Anchorage quite regularly actually. Last time I was in Anchorage I chartered a Beaver on floats for the day and went on a glacier cruise it was awesome. As far as my flying I'm a 150 hour private pilot and I spent a week at a reputable school flying a champ and citabria's to get my tailwheel endorsement. I flew a 3 hour cross country with a guy in a KF IV where I flew from the right seat most of the time and a few other hops here and there but I have no PIC time in one. I'm trying to find someone to give me some dual before I jump in mine. Mine was never issued it's permanent Airworthiness Certificate for some reason to put into Phase II. Even though I have proof via the logs that it was flown 110 hours I have to re apply for an airworthiness certificate and go back into Phase I again. It's probably just as well since it has not flown in 15 years and it was originally certified with a 532 not 582. I found a fairly local DAR with over 1000 hours in a Kitfox that is going to issue my certificate and test fly it for me. The only thing I'm worried about is ground looping it during the landing roll out.  have a feeling your feet are very busy in one of these.

I'm not sure about the engine mount. I got the whole firewall forward from a guy with a B model that put a Jab on it. I got it from John Miller on the Yahoo group actually. The airplane was originally a B model kit but the original builder put a C model Hauler wings on it and re did the panel to get rid of the tank up there. It also has a custom fully plexiglass turtle deck and a few other mods here and there. I'm getting excited to get it going and back in the air where it belongs. My A&P owns his own business and shop and because times have been so tough he shut his shop down and went to work as a Jet services guy during the week for a while. As a result the covering of my wings went WAY down on his priority list so progress has been slow to say the the least. He's teaching me as he goes and lets me use his shop and tools so that's been a pretty good gig too. Anyways I'll keep posting pictures of the progress as I go on here.

Couple of questions for you guys... Know of any good pics and dimensions for doing the gas strut doors and I'm also looking for a good option for a behind the seat storage bag. There is some info on the Yahoo group on both but its just so damn hard to sort through all on that stupid email list.

[akflyer 1427]

I will get some better pics when I get home that show the baggage area that was put in my plane.  It is a full aluminum floor extended baggage that gives me lots of room.  In my brothers kitfox, we just picked up a small duffle bag and zip tied it up behind the seat.  Gave us quite a bit of storage.  I will try to get pics of that too.

When you do the paperwork, just put Rotax engine down, not the specific model.  Mine says all rotax engines so I can go to a 912 and not have to file a change.

I am interested in the plexiglass turtle deck, any chance you could get some pics of it?

[C5Engineer 1170]

Some pics of the turtle deck

[akflyer 1427]

I am going to have to make one, I think I have enough lexan to do it.  Are you planning on folding the wings and trailering every flight or will you be keeping it at an airport.  If you fold the wings everytime, it limits the way you can put in your baggage, or you have to take it out every time.

[C5Engineer 1170]

I plan on keeping it an airport. I'm working on getting half a hangar but even with that I'll be folding. I never thought about the baggage "bag" being in the way. Might have to look into this farther. The big thing with that turtledeck is the bearing blocks. As you well know flaperon flutter is a bad thing.

[akflyer 1427]

Any chance you could put me in contact with Dean Wilson?  I would LOVE to pick his brain and run by him some thoughts on the Avid.  He would be the one that could tell me if I am totaly stupid or not LOL

[C5Engineer 1170]

PM me your number and I will pass it along to him. He's a pretty popular guy and has requested his number not be posted online. He will more than likely call ya. He's a great guy!

[eskflyer 1]

  oops should have started it with :beerchug:    . nice looking bird you will have lots of fun flying in her . Like my BRO said come on up he will get ya in his avid or ya can fly around in a pa 22/20-150  .  The work will be very rewarding .

3579erA

[C5Engineer 1170]

Thanks for the welcome!

[Torch 18]

Hello, new guy here.(FNG) I have been looking at all I can on the internet to educate myself on the Avid models. I have a Champ but I'm going to retire from my job soon and I would like a new project. I will try and buy a fixer upper as I want to take it all apart to see what I have. Are the CD's offered by Airdale worth having? I just want to learn all I can about Avid models. I will probably never fly it two up so a lower powered "A" model or similar would probably do it. I drive 747's for a paycheck but as soon as I take that last first class physical I will be going sport pilot. I met Dean Wilson in the '80's when I was flying eagle ag planes and always liked his way of thinking. I have been searching the yahoo group but search engines for my questions aren't worth a shit. The ability to fold the wings and take it home will be used as hangar rent in my area is out of control. It would be about 28 mile round trip on the trailer so any comments on towing would be appreciated. Thanks. Kevin

[akflyer 1427]

welcome to the dark side.  I think the CD from airdale is more on the MkIV. but I could be wrong.

Few things to think about on the A and B model.  The fuse is narrower, and the door frame is different.  If you are used to crawling into a cub it is not to bad, but is is way easier to get in and out of a C model or Mk IV.  Are looking for low and slow, with the STOL wing or the speed wing?  The top speed difference is about 8-10 MPH flying side by side with my HH and a buddies Mk IV speed wing.  But I can land at 35 he lands at 45-50.

There are some pretty damn good deals on Barnstormers right now.

I can hook you up with the news letters from Avid if you want to read through them.  Lots of good info up till about 97.  I can break them down and email them if you would like.  hell I may as well break them up and post them here.  Iwill try and get that done tomorrow if it wont let me post the full file here tonight.

What is the usefull on the champ?  85 or 90 hp, some where in there?  Only flew one champ but dont remember the specs.

[Torch 18]

Thanks for the reply. The Champ is a standard 7AC with A65 so it is no ball of fire with two. After I rebuilt it with a lot of care put in to keeping it light it ended up at 817 empty with a 404 usefull load. Gross is 1220. I covered it with Poly Fiber and polytone, I feel like that is about as light as you can get for a durable finish. As far as an Avid I want low and slow. I'm aware of the door on the early models and so far I'm agile enough to climb in. I know there is a lot of different engine options with as many opinions,lots for me to learn there. If I buy one with a C of A I can do the condition inspections myself but I'm not opposed to a project if it's all there.(engine optional) I'm in Indiana with the elev. averages 500 to 600 msl so usually don't have to deal with density problems. I haven't been around Avids much, just seen them around at a few fly ins. I remember seeing the prototype N99AF at OSH and when the demo pilot poured the coals to it it jumped in the air, that was impressive. If anybody reading this knows of a project for sale let me know. The folding wings are the deal maker in addition to the performance. I doubt that I would ever have a pax. in it, just looking for an evening flyer. Thanks again. Kevin

[C5Engineer 1170]

There's an A model with a trailer on Barnstormers right now for $12,500. There's also a MKIV with a 912 for 28K (way too much). Pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum right there as far as Avids go. I've been watching for quite some time on barnstormers and I would not pay more than 10-15K for a good one right now.

[akflyer 1427]

http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?PHPSESSID=df71d700821a1855e446efd8a404f562

towards the bottom of the first page is a 92 HH for 13,000.  not too bad if she is airworthy. 

The folding wings is a real bonus for me also.  No hangars that I can get into close, and the T hangars that were for sale were in the 150,000.00 range.  Was not into those price tags.  I keep it in the garage, and it takes about 20 minutes to unload from the trailer and have ready to fly. 

[Torch 18]

I have been watching B'stormers. Are speedwings just shorter and the same airfoil? In regards to trailering are there any problems with towing routinely? I would probably leave it on a tiedown on occasion but the airport manager at my home airport is the hangar police and only one airplane in a hangar, an Avid would fit in my hangar with my Champ with the wings folded. The Avid on B'stormers in missouri is about 50 miles from my brother so I told my wife I may need to visit him. I have a lot to learn about these two stroke engines, I know some guys cuss 'em and other guys fly 'em. Thanks for answering my questions guys.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Speedwings are flat on the bottom and the STOL wings are concave. I think they are the same span just a different airfoil. They land much faster than a STOL. I trailer ed my airplane 900 miles when I bought from my Dads ranch in Idaho down to my house in California. It did great I just kept the speed to 60 or less. I have over a 1000 hours behind Rotax's and many more than that on snowmobiles and dirt bikes. With proper tuning and maintenance I'd fly anywhere behind one. You can't beat the power to weight ratio. A light Avid with a 582 will out climb a heavy one with a 912 or Jab.

[akflyer 1427]

Speed wings have a more conventional airfoil as well as being shorter.  Stall speed goes up almost as much as cruise gain.  If you really want to be comfortable on a 2 stroke you really HAVE to understand what makes it tick, and what keeps it alive.  To look at the jetting chart and see what size jet it is recommended you run is one thing.  To know why is another.  KNowing how to read plugs is the best way to keep a 2 stroke alive and performing well.  You would be doing yourself a big favor to take a 2 stroke course from CPS or one of the other outfits.  It is 500 bucks and 2 days and takes you through teardown and rebuild.  You get a nice little cert saying you are certified to rebuild / maintain rotax 2 strokes.

I have no issues flying behind a 2 stroke.  I fly them in remote mountains, across open water (that is damn cold) and low level.  While I am allways on the lookout for a place to land (just like a do when flying a "real" plane) I am never worried that it will quit.

Mine is trailered every flight.  There was a pretty lively discussion about trailering on the kitfox list... A few facts and shit load of opinions.  I built a trailer out of a single axle boat trailer.  I am certain that this is better than using an equiptment trailer if you are going over rough roads.  The plane is so light you dont even use the suspension on a car hauler, all shock loads go straight to the plane.  You should also use the brace for the front spar.  You can build them for about 20 bucks or get fancy and spend 50 or 60 bucks lol.  My brother trailered his from OK to AK a few years ago and made it in one piece in 5 days so he was not lolly gagging around, but not pushing to hard either.

[akflyer 1427]

Speedwings are flat on the bottom and the STOL wings are concave. I think they are the same span just a different airfoil. They land much faster than a STOL. I trailer ed my airplane 900 miles when I bought from my Dads ranch in Idaho down to my house in California. It did great I just kept the speed to 60 or less. I have over a 1000 hours behind Rotax's and many more than that on snowmobiles and dirt bikes. With proper tuning and maintenance I'd fly anywhere behind one. You can't beat the power to weight ratio. A light Avid with a 582 will out climb a heavy one with a 912 or Jab.

Not quite.  The stol and hauler wing is undercambered and 29' 10.5"  The speed wing is more conventional airfiol and 23' 11.5".

[Torch 18]

I agree about the trailer axle. A car hauler is sprung  for 4000 pound and up weights. I will read up for a few days and quit bugging you guys with shit I should be able to find somewhere on the web. Kevin

[akflyer 1427]

Kevin, not bugging at all.  That is what this is here for!  There ae alot of guys that surf the site but have yet to post.. Maybe a question you ask will get some of the lurkers to post up so keep them coming.

[Torch 18]

I have been reading the matronics Kit fox board.  lot's to read. Got my trailering questions covered among other things.

[akflyer 1427]

I spend lots of time there too... the only issue I have with the list, is that there seems to be alot of clueless ones there, that like to pass on info they have read about or thought about or heard about, but have never experienced it themselves.  Over there when they say or do something boneheaded ya just have to bite your tongue (unless you find a way to hand out a darwin award.. I am getting good at that).  Here, we can call each other out (good naturedly) if we are pretty ceratin that someone is full of shit without fear of being banned or bitch slapped by a moderator..

[Torch 18]

That would be my sentiments as well. You just have to keep telling yourself that it's the "entertain net". I have a lifetime in aviation but I'm always open to learning new stuff. Anymore I don't give advice on welding, fabric covering ,glue ,primer etc. I will tell how I did it but it isn't worth the heartburn to debate with some guy a thousand miles away. I have found an Avid to look at locally. It's not for sale and not flying at the time being but it gives me something to look at in the flesh and learn more. From looking at pictures of various airplanes I wonder about the ribs and the structural integrity in regards to the epoxy to aluminum spars over a long period of time. Although I am dense I have figger'd out that that 61PW is yours Leonard, nice job of bring that back from the dead. I hate to see airplanes tossed aside like that.