N94JE

[Mendlerr 4]

So if I am turning 7,000 WOT, is it acceptable to simply reduce throttle to 6,500 on the takeoff?  It seems very dangerous to me to reduce throttle on takeoff but I guess I am reading so much from different websites I am getting confused.

 

There is so much information on these engines  and  I just feel like most of it is wrong.

 

I guess I am also confused on the 582.  I have a greyhead, my manuals say not to exceed 6,400 RPM's.  I happen to see people say on the forums to climb out at 6,700 RPMS and then reduce power to 6,000 for cruise.  Is this safe or is this only for Bluehead 582's?

Edited 17 Sep 2013 by RMendler

[akflyer 1427]

The rotax 582 max RPM is 6800.  If you are able to turn 7000 on take off, there is no way in hell your gonna keep the EGT's under 1200 when you pull the power back unless you are running REALLY fat mid-range needles. 

 

Everyone's planes are different.  I find I get the best overall take off and climb if I have it set at 6500 on take off.  Any less pitch (more RPM) and I loose speed and have to climb out at a shallower bank angle.

 

So to answer your question, your 582 Grey head is fine to be operated at 6800 RPM only for a couple minutes on take off, but I think you will see degraded performance at 6800 RPM and the prop is just running too flat.  At least that is how it is on mine.

 

[Mendlerr 4]

I'm running it at 6,500RPM WOT.  I was just reading some interesting stuff and the information was all conflicting.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

Well the prop is fixed, I simply backed the castle nut off on the lead screw about 3/4 a turn to where I could still fit the cotter pin in and now I can load up the prop.  I'm still only seeing 500-700fpm climb at 6,500RPM and WOT but I have not played with the flaps very much (can't reach the lever).  Again this is at 4,000ft Density Altitude and higher with little to no flaps,  so I'm sure at sea level it will be much better.

 

Here is my next problem.  I have the IVO IFA and a CLUTCH.  How do you descend in the pattern safely?  Should I reduce power just enough to keep the clutch engaged (3,000RPM) or should I pull it all the way off and disengage the clutch.  I notice if I try any power setting above 3,500 the EGT's go right to 1,200 like I've been told they will.

 

I've flown 2 hours in the past few days with 8 T/O and Landings and each has been drastically different.  With a little power still pulled in I descend at 60MPH and 500FPM.  With  the power at Idle (i.e. Clutch Disengaged) I descend at 60mph and 800FPM.  I have not messed with slips yet, just trying normal landings as I seem to be landing too fast. 

 

Whats typical pattern speeds for all you other Fox flyers?

[akflyer 1427]

These planes are so draggy that you can bleed speed really quick!  Rarely do I look at any kind of speed when flying the pattern as it is all seat of the pants.  With that said, I have flown down wind and base at 80-85 then as I am rolling to final pull the power off and bleed speed in the turn.  I will typically roll wings level at 55-50 MPH and full flaps (on a no wind day, or when the wind is close to straight down the runway).  I ONLY pull in the flaps when I know I have the runway made should the pilot cooling fan stop turning.  On short short short final (10-15' off the ground) I will go half flaps to give me more elevator for the flare and let her settle in.  Sometimes I do have to add power to arrest the sink rate.  Not the text book way to land, but if you want to hit the numbers every time, sometimes you have to drag it in behind the power curve.

 

With the clutch, I would pull power to an idle and let the prop free wheel.  If you want to keep power in and drop fast, dont push the nose down, pull it up a tad!  Go to altitude and check your sink rate at 45 MPH with the nose level or a tad high.  I can get 1000+ FPM sink at 45.  On short final you can drop the nose, pick up some speed and have enough energy left for a flare.  Play around with this at altitude and see what I mean.  I typically fly high, short patterns.  There are lots of things I can do to loose altitude really quick if the engine quits on a high short final, but its a BITCH to try and stretch that long final out more if it quits!  Been there, done that, have the tee shirt and the muddy tires to prove it! (and a slightly soiled Gstring from the Ex-Fiance)  for some reason, she really didn't like that ride that day

 

Flap handle... you seriously cant reach it?  I have not seen a picture of you, but I am suddenly getting a mental image of a circus midget

 

If you want to be able to reach it easier, you can take a piece of tubing that will slip over the end of the flap handle and bend it into a u shape.  Slide it over the end and clamp it or screw it down and the handle will curve back around towards the seat at what ever height you need it to be able to reach it.  Kind of like the EZflap but different

 

 

To be honest.  At 4000' 6-700 FPM is not to out of the ordinary.  I got a NASTY lesson on density altitude this summer when it was 90+ degrees outside... the performance I am used at sea level on a 65-70 degree day was NOT what I got at 90+ degrees and it damn nearly cost me a ride into the trees!  Granted, I was on floats and flying at.. umm.. close to max weight.

 

[Av8r_Sed 82]

I'm afraid you're probably going to need the HacMan to control your mixture and EGT's.  Before I put mine on I had a choice of too little throttle or too much.  It's very uncomfortable seeing the EGT's hitting the stratosphere.  You'll get used to pitching up to load the prop before reducing throttle too.  Kind of tough flying the pattern while keeping EGT's in check.

[Mendlerr 4]

I can reach the flap handle, i just dont like to bend down to reach it.  I'm 5'10" so the Kitfox is comfortable for me.  I just have to loosen my right shoulder harness some.  The hooker harness is not forgiving when cinched down a little tight.

 

Thanks for the advice, I've been flying a tight pattern but I bet I could bring it in a little more.  In fact I haven't even been flying a "pattern" so much as a military style "Initial 1" and "Initial 2" to landing.  A rectangular pattern takes too damn long at 60MPH, haha

[Bandit 286]

I argee with Leni.  I fly at cruise speed into my final. When I know I have the runway made I pull the power back to idle. Around 10'-15' above the ground I add a little power to extend my glide then flare out. 1000' FPM sink rate is why guys are bending their landing gear. These airplanes sink like rocks. You can keep the EGT's in check by flying the pattern this way.

Edited 19 Sep 2013 by Bandit

[Mendlerr 4]

Thanks for all the advice.

 

I just finished editing the video of my first flight in my Kitfox.  The first takeoff was smooth but please excuse the small bounces and lack of directional control on landing.  I wasn't really sure when it was going to touch down so it took me by surprise.  Not to mention I was over controlling.

 

Enjoy!

 

A quick vid of some confined landings I did last year in a Robinson.  Good times.

 

 

Here's a quick vid of some light aerobatics in a Pitts S2C I dug up from last year.  What an incredible airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/edit?video_id=I97vS5i2ByY&o=U&ns=1

Edited 19 Sep 2013 by RMendler

[akflyer 1427]

I did a quick edit for you.  With the new forum software, you dont need the embed code from you tube.  Just copy the addy right out of the browser bar and paste it in.

 

[dholly 718]

 Flap handle... you seriously cant reach it?  I have not seen a picture of you, but I am suddenly getting a mental image of a circus midget

 

HEY, I resemble that remark!

[Mendlerr 4]

Well I almost ran out of fuel, well, to the carbs anyway.

 

I was flying along and the wing tank got down to about 1/4 tank so I decided to bring it on down and start disassembly for the conditional inspection and guess what I found.

 

My rear "header tanks" were almost completely dry and vapor locked.  I had very little fuel flow if any.  I had just replaced the "Fuel Filter" with a new glass one so I assumed it wouldn't be a problem for awhile.  Well it turned out to be the Fuel Filter, it was full of a clearish fiberglass resin that was about the same color as the filter so I did not notice it.  It was completely clogged.

 

If I had of attempted one more pattern I would have run out of fuel about 60-120 seconds after takeoff.  It would not have ended well in my given terrain.

 

Just a reminder to check your fuel filters!  Just because you cannot see debris does not mean its not there!

Edited 20 Sep 2013 by RMendler

[Mendlerr 4]

Also, my fuel flow meter is installed before my header tanks so it is only showing me a reading of fuel flowing from the wing tank?  Not sure why anyone would do this?  I need to move it to infront of the carbs or infront of the header tanks where it matters.

 

Here's some pics of my crazy fuel system.

 

 

 

 

The clear filter in this picture below was the culprit.  It looked clean but it was not

 

The round/oval rubber disk just below the clear glass filter is the fuel flow meter.  It's definitely not in the correct position.

 

Edited 20 Sep 2013 by RMendler

[C5Engineer 1170]

What's the empty weight of your plane? If your whole plane is engineered the same as that fuel system that explains your climb rate your seeing.

[akflyer 1427]

Dual header tanks?? What a plumbing nightmare!  I have a filter coming out of the bottom of my header tank, with the fuel flow sender right after that.  No issues in the last 300 hrs with it set up that way.

 

[Mendlerr 4]

It's 628 empty, well, was.  I just built a new, simplified instrument panel which saved me some weight, stripped out some electrical wires and removed a few non-essential components..  I'm redoing the W&B tomorrow so we will just have to wait and see.  The plane originally weighed 550, but the 3rd owner got his hands on it and added 100lbs of useless stuff and made alot of illegal logbook entries which just got sorted out today by the local IA and DAR.  I'm now officially airworthy again.  The 4th owner stripped it back down to 600lbs but then added the Grove gear and Matco brakes and got it back up to 628.  I am now the 5th owner and have to fix everyone else's mistakes!  haha,

 

I know the fuel system is a nightmare, I really want another 7 or 9 gallon wing tank and to get rid of all this useless crap.  I have no baggage carrying capacity because of the plumbing of the fuel system.  I'm in the process of designing a baggage sack and can't seem to make it work

 

Oh and you should see the electrical.  There is probably 20 miles of white wires, none of it labeled and who the hell knows what its all attatched to?  I can't seem to figure it out.  There are 3 power distribution blocks and the exact same wires running to all 3 of them.  I just dont know what to do about it other then start over but I do not have the money or time right now.

 

I feel like the plane was built really well, but owner after clueless owner got their hands on it and it started to fall apart.  Fortunately the IA and DAR said the fueselage and wings were done very nicely.  It's just the fuel and electrical that needs the work.

 

Oh and AkFlyer, I notice you have ski's in your Sig, did you buy them or build them?  I've been thinking of building a set but not sure where to start.

Edited 20 Sep 2013 by RMendler

[akflyer 1427]

I got them with the plane.  They are made up here locally.  You can get the airdale wheel skis.  If you are not going to be flying in 6' deep powder, I would get the skis they have.  Cheaper than there are.  You can always get the wheel skis and put solid bottoms on them too, or make your own based off the Avid tube n uhmw skis.

 

I saw a lot of posts on other forums about guys obsessing with putting in redundant electrical systems and fuel systems and all that happy horse crap.  I was shocked that none had gone to such extremes as to not put twin engines in it james bond style.. if one quits you just hit a button and another engine pops up and starts running

 

 

 

[Mendlerr 4]

If I were to remove the header tanks and removed all that plumbing would a fuel pump even be necessary?  I don't know much about just high wing tanks, most of the aircraft I fly have fuel pumps on always.  I remember flying a J3 cub a couple years ago with no fuel pump.

[akflyer 1427]

if you have an electric back up fuel pump, I would keep it in the system.  It has saved my ass twice when fuel filter started plugging off and the mechanical pump was not doing it by itself.  I burn 7-7.2 GPH on take off.  I was at 150-200' when the fuel burn dropped to 5.1 and I started loosing RPM.  I hit the electric pump and the flow came back up and I was able to swing around and get her back on the water.  Without it I would have had a nice resting spot in the trees and a long walk.

 

[Mendlerr 4]

good to know.  i'm taking a break from my medical training in the spring to get my Light Sport Repairman Mechanical rating along with Level 1&2 Rotax Maintenance certs and a Rotax 2-Stroke repairmans cert.  I'm hoping to start servicing some local 2 strokes in the future.  In fact, I've already been asked a few times if I can help with repair of a 2 stroke.  There seems to be a demand for these services lately.

[Av8r3400 1179]

Wow...  My Kitfox with a 912, grove gear, large tires is only 647.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Here is a picture of my cargo area on my B model. I had this made by Fisher Upholstery in Eagle Idaho. They used to do all the interiors for Avid and Kitfox and still have most of the pieces on file. You can kind of see my fuel plumbing. It's is just one line from each wing to the aluminum spar header tank and that is it. I later added a shut off from the left tank. From their it goes straight up the side and out the firewall to the mechanical pump. My fuel flow transducer is between the header and the firewall.

 

[akflyer 1427]

You can move that bag further back under the turtle deck and let it go down inside the fuse.  Next time I load up for the lodge I will take a pick of mine, and all the crap I can stick back there.

 

[Mendlerr 4]

well we are just finishing up the annual and did a new W&B.  I think my old W&B was incorrect because after removing 15-20lbs of useless crap the airplane weighed in at 658lbs!!!  Not sure what to do now other then start taking more stuff out.  I think a large part of the extra weight is the complex fuel system and miles of wiring under the panel.  I was really hoping to see a number around 610.

[akflyer 1427]

YIKES!  I thought mine was a pig with a 582 coming in at 550 pounds. 

 

What battery do you have?  The extra header tank and tubing cant be more than 5-8 pounds.  Were your main tanks empty when you weighed it?

 

I still have plans to put mine in a serious diet to try and get it down in the 540 or so range.

[Mendlerr 4]

It's an odyssey battery and that weight measurement was with all the fuel drained, no seats, no turtle deck, and some other miscallaneous things. I don't understand why it's so damn heavy