N94JE

[akflyer 1427]

daaaaaaumn!  well... you can loose another 12 pounds by going with a lithuim battery, then after that its getting down to just stripping the plane back to a bare bones KF and not putting in a panel and gizmo's like your flying a lancair.  That is still a lot of weight to try and shed!  I finally figured out it was cheaper to take 50 pounds off me and not the plane, but I still wanna ditch some weight out of the plane.

 

[akflyer 1427]

One other question.. you said there were illegal entries in the log book.. what could really be illegal in an experimental?  Is your IA familiar with experimentals or is he just used to working on certified stuff?

 

[Mendlerr 4]

He mostly works on experimentals around here. An illegal entry like one that says "new gear" or "fixed mag" and signed by the owner. It is not specific at all and a bunch of words are misspelled. It's kinda funny.  I just try to be as descriptive as possible with my logbook entries.  It's all fixed now though.

 

I still cannot wrap my head around this weigh problem.  I don't understand what could be adding 50lbs to my airplane?

 

Are all you guys using ELT's, Strobes, ect?  I understand I have a fuller panel then most and the grove gear, wheels and brakes do not help but I've had it all apart and it does not weigh that much.

Edited 22 Sep 2013 by RMendler

[C5Engineer 1170]

Q. I’ve seen some amateur-built aircraft with very detailed maintenance records, and some that are much less complete. Aren’t there regulations that govern recording of aircraft maintenance? What is required to be in the aircraft logs?

A. The regulations regarding aircraft maintenance and the recording of same are found in FAR Part 43. However, the first section of Part 43 talks about the applicability of the part. Taking a look at Part 43.1(b) we find the following verbiage:

This part does not apply to any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft.

An amateur-built aircraft receives an experimental airworthiness certificate at the very beginning, so this section tells us that the regulations found in Part 43 do not apply. That being the case, none of the record-keeping requirements of Part 43 are applicable. The only entries that are strictly required are those found in the aircraft’s operating limitations, issued by the FAA as a part of its airworthiness certificate. Mainly this would be condition inspections each year and the flight test sign-off, along with transponder tests (if a transponder is installed) and pitot/static tests if the aircraft is to be flown under instrument flight rules. There is no strict guidance on what to put (or what not to put) in an amateur-built aircraft logbook other than what is required by the aircraft’s operating limitations.

At the time of the airworthiness inspection by the FAA, the owner of the aircraft, whether or not he/she is the builder, will be required to record that a condition inspection has been completed on the aircraft prior to the FAA inspection. This initial condition inspection is recorded using the same language as later condition inspections, as follows:

I certify that this aircraft has been inspected on [insert date] in accordance with the scope and detail of Appendix D to Part 43, and was found to be in a condition for safe operation. [signature], Owner

The FAA also likes to see at least one hour of ground testing recorded in the aircraft records. This is not a strict regulatory requirement, but is very common among airworthiness inspectors.

The other requirement is for the flight testing to be properly recorded. The aircraft’s operating limitations will contain the appropriate language to use for closing out the flight-test period, as shown here:

I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds VSO ______, VX ______, and VY ______, and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained. [Aircraft total time], [signature], [type of pilot certificate and certificate number]

Other than this, the annual condition inspections, and documentation of major changes as directed by the aircraft’s operating limitations, there isn’t any regulatory requirement to log anything! Of course EAA recommends a “best practice†of proper logging of all maintenance in accordance with Part 43 even though it’s not strictly required. This not only promotes safety by having a record of what has been done to the aircraft, but also increases the value of the aircraft at the time of sale.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Read the above paragraph carefully its straight off the EAA website. You could write I had lucky charms for breakfast in your book if you wanted to! in fact you could take that logbook and toss it in the trash and still be completely legal provided you have a statement somewhere like above that has been signed by an A&P (doesn't need to be an IA) in the last 12 mos. I just get a sticker for my log book. No one ever sees it except me and what is in it is just for my own gee wiz info. I have drawings and all kinds of crazy stuff in mine. I sincerely hope you have not been paying a guy to fix misspelled words in your logbook.

[Tim Tophoven 1]

One should also remember that anything not installed in the aircraft when weighed for weight and balance needs to be listed on your equipment list with weight and arms recorded for each recording. Aircraft should be completely assembled for weight and balance, why list your seat and turtle deck on a equipment list?

[Mendlerr 4]

The "actual W&B" will be done in a few days with everything installed properly.

I have read that part of the FAR's before but for some reason it just made more sense to me now. The IA did not charge me a dime to review anything, the only logbook entry that came under scrutiny was because of wording. One of the previous owners wrote "removed engine, overhauled engine per rotax specifications, reinstalled engine". The DAR let it slide but because it a a major modification and he did not own nor was licensed as a Rotax Major Repair Facility he cannot use the term "overhauled". Either way it was all resolved and it was free.

[akflyer 1427]

I would have told him to pound sand..That is mixing certified terms with experimental planes.. If I was building a certified plane, I could say I overhauled it, but I can't say I zero timed it. 

 

Not to get all caught up in the book stuff, I am still head scratching where the weight came from.  What paint system did he use?  Is there so much paint on it that you cant see the weave of the fabric?  That is one quick way to add pounds on a plane.. It is a fabric plane, you should be able to see the weave.  If you shoot so much on that you cant see the weave, 1 your heavy and 2 its gonna ring worm on ya.  The grove gear adds a few pounds over the stock gear, but nothing that should be making it that damn heavy.  I have full extended baggage in mine as well as 1" .058" lift struts and a few other things that I did that put some pounds on the plane, but I cant even come close to your weights if I tried.

 

[tcj 150]

I still cannot wrap my head around this weigh problem.  I don't understand what could be adding 50lbs to my airplane?

Weight gets added one ounce at a time throughout the building and then the "Improving it" phases.

 

The original kitfox classic 4 sales brochure lists the empty weights as 580 with a 912, 560 with a 582, and 495 with a 503.

 

The 495 with the 503 required no polyspray, no wing tanks, no strut fairing, no false ribs, etc.  I built mine pretty bare bones but did install, two wing tanks, top and bottom false ribs.  I put three cross coats of polyspray on the top surfaces but  only two cross coats on the bottom of the fuselage and bottoms of the wings.  It weighed in empty at 547.

 

Seven years later it weighs 573.  26 pounds gained one ounce at a time.  Actually, 12 pounds was all at once when I added PVC wing strut fairing.

Edited 22 Sep 2013 by tcj

[akflyer 1427]

Weight gets added one ounce at a time throughout the building and then the "Improving it" phases.

 

The original kitfox classic 4 sales brochure lists the empty weights as 580 with a 912, 560 with a 582, and 495 with a 503.

 

The 495 with the 503 required no polyspray, no wing tanks, no strut fairing, no false ribs, etc.  I built mine pretty bare bones but did install, two wing tanks, top and bottom false ribs.  I put three cross coats of polyspray on the top surfaces but  only two cross coats on the bottom of the fuselage and bottoms of the wings.  It weighed in empty at 547.

 

Seven years later it weighs 573.  26 pounds gained one ounce at a time.  Actually, 12 pounds was all at once when I added PVC wing strut fairing.

I never weighed the PVC struts when I put them on my plane, but I knew they were heavy.. damn, I may go to a different style fairing if I can figure out a lighter way to do it.  Maybe use the PVC ones for a mold and make them out of CF.

 

Your right about the one ounce, or one pound at a time.. it adds up quick!

 

[tcj 150]

Strut fairing is the one add on that gained me more performance than it's weight penalty cost me.  I haven't timed the climb rate to be sure but it does seem to have increased.  The cruise speed at 5800 rpm went from 75 to 85 mph and the power off glide improved significantly too.

[akflyer 1427]

I noted the same performance gain on mine!  The increase in climb was the big kicker for me!

 

[akflyer 1427]

I would find a new A&P to work on it...  sounds like the IA is stuck on dealing with it like it is certified.  That is just my .02, but it seems that he is having you jump through hoops that you should not have to.   yes, if you desire, you can build it and maintain it to certified standards.. but if your gonna do that, why not go certified to begin with

 

 

[birddog486 21]

The requirements for experimental record keeping cant get much clearer than this.     http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=95716958001

[akflyer 1427]

ok, I was getting the impression that he was making you do a bunch of shit, not just suggesting it.  Like i said before, you can keep the plane up to normal standards, but its not required.  I am good with safe

 

[Mendlerr 4]

Well like I said I will pull the battery and see how much it weighs. I have made it a goal to get this plane to 600lbs. I see no reason for it to weigh any more then that. I greatly simplified the instrument panel.

[Mendlerr 4]

I may go to the airport tomorrow and take pictures of the airplane. Maybe someone might have an idea of what weighs so much. Maybe I'm missing something

[akflyer 1427]

Is there lead in the tail?  Where is the battery at?  can you see the fabric weave or is it just nice and smooth?  I would dump that second header tank if it was in my plane and all the 787 plumbing to go with it

[Mendlerr 4]

I just have so little fuel capacity, only 17 gallons, 15 usable.  I have no range.  It sucks.  i really want another wing tank, just not sure how to make it happen without spending alot of money.  There is no lead, tail only weighs 57lbs.  The battery is just behind the firewall on the copilots side.  There is a good coat of paint.  I wont say you can see a weave but I'm sure if you looked you could.  I had a piece flake off the other day and it wasn't too thick

[akflyer 1427]

ahhh, I got ya.  I cant see you having an extra 100 pounds of wiring in there either.  when you go out get a bunch more pics of the plane inside and out, see if we can spot something.

 

Where is your CG at now?  short field performance suffers if your in the forward edge of the envelope.  I like mine at 16-18"

 

[Av8r3400 1179]

The Radiator is not a problem, but putting cheek rads in will be.  You would need to do a complete cowl setup to get the airflow right.

 

Just keep reviewing the plane.  You will find weight to cut...

[SkyPirate 8]

I ran a 3 blade tapered tip nickel edge warp on my 582 model 2 ..pitch I think was around 12 degree's  set you back in the seat on take off,..cruise was around 90 good numbers all aroun on CHT /EGT think I had the 145's for mains though,..might have been 155's

[akflyer 1427]

well..... When I talked to Dean Wilson about the CG limit, he said the published limit on the original and all subsequent Avids was for the guys that were building them in the garage then learning to fly in them.  A nose heavy airplane flys poorly, a tail heavy plane flys once..  With that said, he stated they tested the cg to 22".  He told me to never stall the plane at an aft CG of more than 21" without having full flaps in as you would run out of elevator before you could push the nose over.  I fly mine back to 20" and I can feel it starting to drop a little.  It takes full down trim to fly level at cruise.  I LOVE mine right at 18".  Lighter control forces, trim is neutral, stalls are perfect.  Take off is shorter, climb is better, cruise is faster and landings are shorter.

 

Can you move one of the header tanks to the back side of the firewall instead of behind the seat?

 

A typical load for me headed to the lodge is 29 gallons of gas, in the extended baggage behind the seat I have,

1) 15 pounds of clothes and other crap the wife needs to stay happy

2) a 12 pack of coke and a 12 pack of Dr Pepper and at least one 12 pack of 7up

3) 2-3 5ths each of brandy, captain morgan's and segrams 7

4) survival bag that weighs in at 10-15 pounds depending on the season

5) 6-8 steaks weighing in at 1.2-2 pounds each and a sac of spuds

6) couple gallons of milk

 

My 200 pound ass in the seat next to my 120 pound wifey. 

 

CG comes in right around 20".  If i am on floats in the summer I will put some of said items in the floats and move the CG to around 19".  In the winter I am on ski's and have lots of runway or lake to operate off of. 

 

With this being said, at your DA, I would not go much behind 19", but I would darn sure play around with putting a little weight on the tail spring, or what ever you need to do to see how she flys.  Start at 17", then a little more to 18" etc.  take it up to altitude and play around with slow flight and see if she dont actually fly better than it does now!

 

[Mendlerr 4]

interesting considering the published cg is 10.7-16".  I'll have to play around.

 

Where do you live and how do I get there?  Sounds like a party!  Steak, Seagrams and 7up, haha!

[Mendlerr 4]

 

Aft Firewall Wiring (What a MESS)

 

An Earl's oil cooler with a computer fan behind it is my in cabin heat and air system, haha.  It's crude but works well!

 

 

Thats about it for the interior and engine bay pics.