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Looking to purchase this and have questions.

31 posts in this topic

Posted

Hello all,

I just joined this site last week and have read almost everything here already. Seems like a good group with lots of information.

 

I'm looking to purchase an Avid MK IV or Kitfox IV or higher. I have one fairly local that isn't for sale other than the owner contacted me after seeing my ad on Barnstormers about looking for one. I need to know if he's in the ballpark on the price or if I should hold off and be patient.

 

Here are some specs:

1998 build, 1150 GTOW, 225 hours total time, 137 on new blue head and prop. Stored inside, tundra tires and wheels as well as the normal tires wheels. New in 2013, windshield, top and door glass, regular tires and new RV style tailwheel spring, tire and wheel. He says it's much easier to taxi since that extended it back almost a foot.

No heater, but has a couple GPS's he's willing to let go for the price. Also comes with a trailer but no transponder, but he did find me one for $250 that I can install.

I don't have a problem installing a heater but have no idea what anyone has done for that in these birds. I can't seem to get the search function to find anything on it here on this site either, so maybe it doesn't exist?

 

What I'd like to know: are there things I should specifically ask about this airplane?

Any problem areas to look at?

Is the stock bungee gear okay or should I already start thinking about upgrading? (I'm a welder and will build  my own)

Any other information that I may not have asked about?

Obviously the big question is this a fair price for this bird?

 

Thank so much!

 

Kenneth

 

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Posted

What is the price he is floating you?

Is he the original builder?

How complete are the logs?

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Posted (edited)

Kenneth,

      You forgot to put the price - I think you said about $16K?  Looks and sounds like a nice plane.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Sorry, you're correct I forgot to put the price on here. He was asking $15,900 before adding a trailer and transponder to the mix at my request. So with those two items we've come to $16,450, which after watching this type of plane for several years I think is fair.

 

He is not the original builder but the log books are good (he tells me, haven't seen it yet). He has also built half a dozen aircraft and did a lot of work to this bird last year instead of flying it because he didn't like some of it, namely new cooling system, glass all around, the tires and wheels and gear that I mentioned.

 

He did have a local Rotax mechanic go through the engine very thoroughly in November for the condition inspection. He has only flown it a couple times and now needs money for a prop and avionics for his RV6 that he's building, so he's reluctantly selling it but needs the money to complete the RV.

 

Having not had the chance to fly one yet and this one not having a heater (I'll change that quickly if I can find some information about it here), I would like to know all of your thoughts on this. The data tag shows it as an Avid Mk IV, I'm not sure how to tell otherwise. Any help is appreciated!

 

Kenneth

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Posted

I talked to C5engineer this evening on the phone. From what he told me it looks like this might be a good way to go. But now I have a couple other options as well. I got a hold of another guy I know about 7 miles from me that has an Avid B model hanging in his woodshop. It's been there for 15 years and he will never finish it. He has a complete kit with finished wings, ready to cover and a brand new engine in the box (no idea which one though) that he's willing to part with for a good price.

 

I already have a flying aircraft so it's not a big deal if I have to finish one up. In fact I've always wanted to build something and this would be a great opportunity given my current situation of no work and a lot of time to work on one, plus the garage and trailer to do it in.

 

In further suggestions from you all?

 

Thanks for those that have chimed in so far, I appreciate the comments and thoughts.

 

Kenneth

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Posted

I think that is the wide bungee gear ,mine has the narrow gear and is simple to land as is .nice looking plane ,I vote buy it ,but I always vote that way

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Posted (edited)

Welcome Kenneth,

For model differentiation clues, see info in this thread >>> http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/931-model-airframe-differences/

my .02 to buy or not to buy... If you've watched the used market for Avid and Kitfox for any length of time, you already know that price is reasonable for a flying Mk4 with current condition inspection. Particularly so for a nice clean build with low hours that has been gone thru so recently by a second experienced owner/builder and Rotax tech. That's several different sets of eyes with complimentary expertise and interests putting a stamp of approval on the plane, not just the original builder potentially willing to do or say anything in order to pawn off his less than perfect first build attempt on an unsuspecting buyer. Sounds like you know what makes for a safe amateur built Experimental but, IMHO, it's still important to have as many [hopefully qualified] eyes on and 'second opinions' as possible. Personally, because any bargains on a quality flying Avid or Kitfox in annual happen so rarely in my part of the states, I would buy it pretty darn quick if it passed my on-site smell test. In my experience, there is a lot of junk in the EAB marketplace and there are a lot more opportunities to pick up an unstarted kit or partially finished project on the cheap vs. a flying aircraft in good condition. If interested in the building experience, keep in mind that the Avid B model will not be worth near as much on resale as a Mk-IV due to 911 lb. vs. 1150 lb. MTOW. Most say great for solo ops but very limited with a passenger. Maybe better to wait for a KF3 kit/project w/ 1050 lb. MTOW. Good luck with your decision!

[edit] I would also note that this Mk-IV is a 'convertible' which, IMHO, adds a fair amount of value to the right buyer. Not sure how many Mk-IV's left the factory with the nose weldment but they don't show up often.

Edited by dholly

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Posted

Buy it if the price is right!

It has the nose wheel weldment. In my opinion worth its weight in gold. Not many have that and it allows the plane to be configued nose wheel or taildragger. That increases the value of the plane considerably as it is desirable to a much wider audience.

Very nice looking plane!

Chris

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Posted

dynomike, dholly and ChrisB,

 

Thanks for the opinions it really helps to hear what those flying these birds have to say about one since I have no experience with the Avid/fox aircraft other than I've always liked the way they look, especially on big tires! I do have experience with a myriad of other things that lend well to keeping up and/or building an aircraft though so that helps.

 

It sounds to me like if I was just looking for a singe seat (although two seat) aircraft the B model might be a good project but that by the time I got it together it really wouldn't suit my mission profile very well. That's pretty much what I though based on my research over the past several years.

 

I didn't realize that the MK IV had the nose wheel fitment, that does help in my mind as well. I'm learning as I go, like most of us do.

 

What do you all think of the HACman mod? I feel like it would need something like that as I move around a lot and plan to be back out in the western states, i.e. high altitude flying, again in the next couple years. I miss the mountains too much!

 

If there is anyone in the St. Louis area that has a flying Fox or Avid, please let me know. I'd love to catch a ride in one.

 

A question on heaters: has anyone been successful at capturing the heat from the regular cheek radiators to use for cabin heat rather than add a lot of weight as another radiator/heater core? Not to mention the extra coolant lines and plumbing components. I like to keep things as simple as possible and don't like the idea of having cooling in the cockpit if I can help it.

 

Thanks again!

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Posted

Does anyone know of a nose gear for the Avid that's hanging around and for sale? I think it would be cool to be able to configure between the two and realize it's not a think I'd do every day but since my wife is a commercial pilot with zero tailwheel time it might help her get comfortable with the plane and then switch back.

 

Did they use the same main gear when switching between trike and tailwheel?

 

Is it just me or does the search feature on this forum not bring up a lot of information at times? I've tried to search about stretching the fuselage and can't find much. Being a welder I've always figured when it came time to redo fabric that would be something I would do.

 

Thanks again!

 

Kenneth

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Posted (edited)

Ken,

     Suberavid Randy in Alaska had a set for sale at one time.  You have to change the maingear too.

    There were two different mounting systems used for the nosegear - make sure you get the right one.

You were asking about a Kitfox Avid flyer in the area - Your closest bet is at Jacksonville, IL.  SkyPirate near Houston, MO. has a Kitfox 5, and another guy who was with EAA 32 in St. Charles, MO. had a KF5, but have not had contact with him for years.

    Why don't you take a ride in the one you are wanting to buy???

Hope this helps.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted (edited)

Hi Kenneth,

 

I echo the thoughts on here about the price being reasonable for a good condition flying MKIV.  Sorry, I sold my tri gear set up years ago but if you are a pavement pounder pilot, the trigear may be what you want.  The nose gear was the castoring type from an RV6 on a longe S shaped forged spring and the main legs were Avid but a different configuration from the TD gear (you cannot just turn them around as some have thought).  With the trigear I always said I could throw the plane at the ground at it would land itself.  As Mike said, the plane in your pictures has Airdale wide gear on it which makes it much better in ground control and more stable so it handles pretty well as a tail dragger; especially if it has good brakes.

 

For the heater, it is common practice to pull heat off the nose radiators.  Avid even had a fiberglass collector that mounted to the radaitors with an outlet for a 2" scat hose.  I built a set out of aluminum, not as pretty but effective.  Best to only cover about 1/2 the radiators though so it still gets good airflow through the radiators and then remove the collectors for summer so it gets full airflow.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Randy

 

I added a picture of the tri gear.

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Edited by SuberAvid

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Posted (edited)

Ed,

 

I would go fly this one, but it's still a two hour drive away and the current owner is somewhat limited on schedule to see and fly it. I've only been able to talk to him on the phone and via email so far. I should have gone on Saturday this weekend before the bad weather hit, but I had other plans already. Plus he told me it was too windy to fly over in Indiana. I guess I need to get a hold of Skypirate, that way sometime after I purchase this one I might have someone to fly around with!

 

Randy.

 

Not a big issue that you sold your gear already, but just curious what did you end up getting for it. PM me if you don't want to post that information up. I'd just like to know what I should be looking to spend on it if I get serious about that.

 

I also know that this plane already has/had the door on the firewall for the heater and was thinking of doing that exact thing to bring in warm air. I have made a lot of fiberglass custom parts so that's easy to do and I think the least weight penalty. I also think it might help the engine cooling temps be more steady from winter to summer flying since you are effectively blocking a little of the flow with the collectors on the back of the radiators.

 

Thanks again guys, this is looking very positive as a possible purchase. I think I'm going to skip on the Avid B model and other C/B models I've found in the last two days based on all the comments. I'll keep you all posted.

 

Feel free to throw any other ideas at me that you have!

 

One last question: the current owner installed an RV type tailwheel spring, does anyone see any issues I might have with this?

 

Seems like a good way to streamline the plane, have a nice solid spring and yet lengthen the distance between the tail and main's a bit for better ground handling. He said it really made a difference from the before to after modification. I will also get the other spring so it could be converted back. The plane comes with all the parts he got with it, plus more that he added.

Edited by lostman

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Posted

I don't know much about the RV tailwheels, but I would be observant of it if you plan on doing any serious off airport landings.  My impression is that they are lighter weight and meant for mostly paved runways.

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Posted

What do you all think of the HACman mod? I feel like it would need something like that as I move around a lot and plan to be back out in the western states, i.e. high altitude flying, again in the next couple years. I miss the mountains too much!

 

Kenneth,

I'm flying with the HacMan system and am very happy with it.  I was having a bear of a time keeping my EGT's in check.  After I installed the system and got the right main jets installed, I can just dial in the optimum EGT and know my mixture is perfect.  The other advantage is I haven't had to do seasonal adjustment of needle clip position or main jets.

 

Good luck if you end up making an offer.

 

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Posted

Ken,

     My friend at Artic Sparrow in Birchwood, Alaska, designed a system like the Hacman - Akflyer is using one, I think - and I don't know if there are differences in the two systems, or the costs, or if one is better than the other.

Mike died a few years ago, and I don't know if they are still available.  Leni should know.

EDMO

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Posted

Thanks again guys.

 

Great information from all that have contributed. My only hesitation with this plane now is that I have to sell my current Teenie Two. I've had so much fun in this plane but I really want to be able to fly with my wife, who is also a commercial pilot.

 

I'd love to have a fat avid but $$$ is obviously an issue for the upgrade. Having not been able to find anything on doing the work myself I'll have to go with the MK IV for now and see what the future holds. I already have the Subaru with a belt redrive waiting for a plane but it will wait for another time.

 

If anyone can point me to a link or information on the stretching and widening process I'd sure be happy about it :)

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Posted

Ken,

      You can come over as soon as the snow melts and get this cheap, widened and lengthened fuselage for your Soob.

EDMO

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Posted

Ed, I just might do that. I could afford to keep my Teenie and build that instead of selling it to buy the MK IV. How much of the design work have you done as far as wings, tail etc for it?

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Posted

None!  Just hauled it home for someone to save - Any design should do, but Magnum wings are simple to build.  I have manual.

ED

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Posted

Ken,

     My friend at Artic Sparrow in Birchwood, Alaska, designed a system like the Hacman - Akflyer is using one, I think - and I don't know if there are differences in the two systems, or the costs, or if one is better than the other.

Mike died a few years ago, and I don't know if they are still available.  Leni should know.

EDMO

When Mike died the Arctic Sparrow In Flight was taken over by one of his instructors (Bud Gisham) but when I asked him about them a couple years ago he said he was not making them anymore.  There are a few sets floating around I have seen where people had them for sale, but if you break a cable, or a needle gets worn, your back to square one and putting stock barrels back in your carb.  If anything happens to mine I will be going to the hacman system.

 

:BC:

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Posted

Also, I was DEFFINATELY in the camp that the subie was NOT the engine for the Avid airframe.  Light is the way to go... well, after flying a good bit with Randy, using the same damn wing I have, its pretty impressive to me how his "pig" performs.  If you can put a subie in a normal airframe and get the W&B OK by just moving the battery to the tail, I would say go for it.  Randy only has to carry half the fuel I do for any given mission and his plane performs just as well as mine and he kicks my ass in cruise now.

 

With all this said..... We are flying at lower temps than a lot of you guys do and at lower altitudes and I feel that plays a HUGE roll in the performance we are seeing from our planes up here.  Cold air at sea level makes for a good performing plane, and I would not expect a Subie powered plane at 80 degrees and 7-8000' DA perform remotely close to how Randy's plane flys.  But he made a believer outta me up here or at lower DA's

 

:BC:

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Posted

The fuselage stretch makes all the difference in the world in regard to heavy motors and Avids.

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Posted (edited)

No engine performs in the Lower Midwest or Southern states like they do in the cold air - Pilots here don't have skis because we don't get enough snow usually, and they don't go to the airport if it is below 40F, unless they are trying to finish their commercial training, like I did.

 

I am seriously hoping that the 4 inch leading edge extension and bigger tailfeathers will do the job that the stretch does.

I could have done the stretch, but didn't feel like I needed a longer nose-dragger that would take more space to store - and I drag the skid off of the tails enough already!

 

BTW:  If anyone has not heard of Mike Jacober, or Artic Sparrow,  he used his carb adjustment to set altitude records in thos funny looking triangle wing thingys with a 2-cycle engine on them - (weight shift powered somethings?) and I believe he even went over Denali (Mt. Mc Kinley) 20,000+ feet in one!

He made them and also had a Rotax repair shop in Birchwood, Alaska.

Sad part was, that he also died while flying one at low altitude in Alaska.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

I think Mike set the record using an Antares trike, and Bud did it using a powered parachute....  and they both used 582's  The kicker was, using the inflight needles and keeping the egts dialed in perfect, they were running 15-1800 hrs between overhauls on the fleet of 582's

 

 

:BC:

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