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Jabiru 3300 in Fat Avid


32 posts in this topic

Posted

Hey guys,

Just an update on where I am with my Fat Avid

I am registered with the MD-RA with my "Letter of Intent" to build an amateur home-built aircraft and have received acknowledgement from them.

I am now waiting for them to come up here during the first week of March, to confirm the "Major Portion" requirement which will allow me to start work.

All I have done so far is remove the covering from the Horizontal Stab, Elevator and have started uncovering the wing (needed for the "Precover Inspection")

Oh yeah and the other thing I did was move everything except the fuselage into the basement.

Getting all those parts past the wife has been the hardest part so far.

The fabric was glued down with the Stewart's System and was a brute to get off.

A call to Stewart's indicated that although lacquer thinner or MEK will soften the glue, heating it gently with a torch and then sandblasting is the easiest way to remove it.

 

I have experience working with the Poly Fiber system (repairs to my Challenger II)  and will likely end up going with what I know.

This is my first full cover job and I like the idea of being able to wash away any mistakes with MEK and being able to start over clean.

It's a more "odorific" procedure, but one I understand.

 

As for my question:

 

I have been pondering which engine to install in this thing.

The realistic options available are:

1) Rotax 582 (least expensive install - up front cost) 

2) Jabiru 2200 (used with "lowish" hours and / or re-buildable) 

3) Jabiru 3300 (used with "lowish" hours and / or re-buildable) 

4) Subaru EA81  (used with "lowish" hours and / or re-buildable)  -- although I can't find any useful information on a Subaru conversion and Stratus seems to not exist anymore

 

Much further down my list are the VW conversions eg: Aerovee, Great Plains, Revmaster etc.

I think, unless someone wills me a Rotax 912, it is out of the question due to price and the reluctance for Rotax to sell engine parts.

 

I come from a family of engine rebuilders that have been in business for 50 + years and have all the resources available to me to completely rebuild anything I can buy parts for.

I was also self employed for 4 years doing restorations and engine rebuilding on vintage American and British motorcycles, and am very familiar with low weight high horsepower engines

Constructing the plane as amateur home-built allows me to do all the work on the power-plant myself ... and I am OK with this and trust my abilities.

 

The question I have is regarding "Installed Weight " of the engine I choose.

I currently have found a Jabiru 3300 with a full avionics package I can purchase nearby and was wondering  if this could be a candidate?

Has anyone had experience with a Jabiru 3300 in an Avid Plus or similar size aircraft.

Is this simply too much engine?

 

 

The Rotax 582 installed weight is about 110 lbs

The Jabiru 2200 is about 142 lbs 

The Jabiru 3300 is about 181 lbs.

I have no idea what the Subaru weighs but it seems to have a following, without current support from a manufacturer of aircraft grade components?

These weights include exhaust, radiators, air filters, electric starter, carburetors etc.

I would appreciate anyone's opinions on the above engines, or ..... other recommendations?

My plan for this plane is strictly recreational flying, but do plan to install floats on it once the Challenger is gone.

Jim R

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The installed weight of the Soob is about 190 to 200 lbs - Stratus2000 is the current name - Ram or RFI and some others - Valley? - Look in this months Kitplanes mag for alternate engines list.

I think you will be sorely disappointed with the Jab or any engine that requires a short prop, especially if you are going on floats - you need a redrive, or one of the "aircraft" engines that turns slower - the Soob is heavy for floats, but I think SuberAvid flys his solo on floats.  The guy in Canada who sold my Soob said it was too heavy in a Pelican with a passenger and floats - He bought a 912.

  I think the VW with redrive is about as heavy. 

 A Continental 0-200 is about 175 lbs, and about 12 lbs less for a C-90.

The 582 may be your best choice if you cant find a good used 912.

Where are you located?  What is MD-RA?  Why do you have to have an inspection to recover?  If the plane has been built, and registered, you cannot be the builder in the USA.  You are only doing "repairs" here.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

The installed weight of the Soob is about 190 to 200 lbs - Stratus2000 is the current name - Ram or RFI and some others - Valley? - Look in this months Kitplanes mag for alternate engines list.

I think you will be sorely disappointed with the Jab or any engine that requires a short prop, especially if you are going on floats - you need a redrive, or one of the "aircraft" engines that turns slower - the Soob is heavy for floats, but I think SuberAvid flys his solo on floats.  The guy in Canada who sold my Soob said it was too heavy in a Pelican with a passenger and floats - He bought a 912.

  I think the VW with redrive is about as heavy. 

 A Continental 0-200 is about 175 lbs, and about 12 lbs less for a C-90.

The 582 may be your best choice if you cant find a good used 912.

Where are you located?  What is MD-RA?  Why do you have to have an inspection to recover?  If the plane has been built, and registered, you cannot be the builder in the USA.  You are only doing "repairs" here.

EDMO

Hey Ed:

Thanks for the response.

I read this months Kitplanes article on engines but was bummed by the crazy prices for 4 strokes.

I have been reading that a larger diameter prop turning slower on a re-drive is better for a float plane.

It seems that without a reduction the max prop diameter (depending on RPM of course) is somewhere in the 60 inch dia. range.

With a reduction approximately 70".

What I am trying to avoid is loading the tail with lead to compensate for too heavy an engine ... without knowing what too heavy is.

I'm sure it is all a game of compromises.

I'm just trying to get an idea of what people are having success with and what weight engine the Avid Plus is capable of supporting.

 

Regarding your questions:

I am in a small town about 25 miles north east of Toronto Ontario Canada

MD-RA stands for Minister Delegate - Recreational Aviation it is the agency that is responsible for inspecting aircraft for Transport Canada

The history of the plane allowed me to bring it into Canada from upstate New York as "aircraft parts" 

This was due to the Airdale Fuselage being brand new and unregistered.

The Wings and Horizontal Control surfaces had flown on a MK IV, but since the fuselage carries the serial number these parts were orphaned when the original fuse was damaged and sold.

I was very specific with the MD-RA before I bought it and it was their suggestion to bring it in as "Parts"

I have given it a serial number of JR7274 and have listed it as, Make: Airdale   Model: Avid Plus, with a MTOW of 1200 LBS, and so far all is moving ahead.

The MD-RA told me before I bought it that I would have to have the aircraft inspected 3 times to get it to qualify as amateur homebuilt

The first inspection is "Major Portion" that ensures 51% or more than the plane will be assembled / fabricated by me. This was required because the wings and tail have flown and they have to confirm that the fuselage has not.

The second inspection is the "Pre-cover" which allows them to see the structural integrity of the entire plane including all welds, control cables and rods to control surfaces.

This is why I have to pull the fabric off. I don't mind the extra work as the existing fabric is "not bad, but not great either". Also one wing had already been stripped before I bought the plane. 

The third inspection is the "Pre Flight" and takes place at the airport.

All this is to avoid registering this plane as Canadian Basic Ultralight, which limits the gross to 1150 Lbs, requires mandatory helmets, and does not allow unlicensed passengers.

My Challenger is registered basic, and this was the primary reason for getting a 2nd plane.

JR

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Posted (edited)

Jim,

      The Fat Avid should hold the Soob without adding weight to the tail - You can add enough baggage to balance - SuberAvid Randy loves his - somehow I thought you had just a  plain Avid.   You should talk to him.

The Soob is a long-lasting engine with little maintenance - they were about $8000 to $10000 new, and I saw one with Warp Drive prop sell on ebay for $2500.  I gave $2500 for mine (75 hours since new crank, because someone abused it) several years ago, without a prop.  Dave Johnson in Canada did my conversions, but he died and his "Recuctions" company is out of business now.

      It has been proven that the short props just don't perform like the 70 to 72 inch props.

EDMO

I had to put 4 inch leading edge extensions on my wings to balance my short Kitfox clone.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Of your engine choices, my $.02 would be:

 

#1 - Rotax 912

#2 - Subaru EA81

#3 - Something not on your list...

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Posted (edited)

I have a spare EA-81 that had 31K miles on it, and I gave $1K for it shipped to Alaska from Washington.  You can always search the junk yards and the dealers that sell the Jap engines that have to be replaced or overhauled in Japan when they get 30K on them - that's the law there - not that they need it - I have seen Soob cars with 3-400K in Alaska - just keep the oil changed.

I think you can buy a redrive for $35-4500 and convert the engine yourself - but you wont get the full power unless you have the cam reground, and get the dual carb model, or use the auto-trans model with hydraulic  lifters and bigger valves, and use a Holly 2 barrel, and mill the heads .030 to .040 - Stratus was getting $125 exchange for cam and lifters, but that has probably gone up by now.  I believe they also bore their engines oversize and use VW or aftermarket pistons to get their advertised 105 hp at a higher rpm.  Stock engines are 72 hp in a car here and about 80 to 85 hp with better carb in a plane.

Stratus2000 also advertises an exhaust which is supposed to give about 10 more hp for about $400.

There are books available on the conversions.

EDMO

I think the NSI was a turbo EA-81 which produced about 130 hp, but heavier.

ED

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

the doctors says; if you have a FAT AVID take a Soobie!

 

I believe  Randy can give you better opinion... but as I heard every where, they are heavy, reliable, and cheap to run, both in fuel and spare parts.... 

 

Regards

Dimi3

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Posted

I bought my long block from Colorado component rebuilders with their aircraft upgrade .on sale total was 2200,shipped.runs like a dream on 3.5 gal n hr

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Posted

If you don't go with a Stratus, which has a 2.2:1 belt redrive and higher engine rpm, then look for a redrive such as my 1.84:1 or a 2.0:1 ratio, so you don't have to turn as many engine rpms.  I don't know what the other makers offer.

The stock Soob has peak torque at 3600 rpm, with the Stratus cam regrind, it comes at 4800.

EDMO

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Posted

Dynomike,

      Did your engine come with a redrive?  mods?  How long ago?

EDMO

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Posted

If you are still thinking about the Jabiru at all, check what serial # the engine is.  Their early engines had solid lifters and had less problems then the next series of engines, I put about 400 hrs on a 2200 with solid lifters.  They went to hydrolic lifters and had some issues with valve stems cracking and ruining the pilot's day.  Latest engines seem to have those bugs worked out.  Cooling is also somewhat of an issue with some 3300s.  They are a beautiful engine and run very smooth when all is okey though.  There is a lot of info in the Yahoo jabiruengines  (one word) group files.  Join and do a bit of reading before you buy.  Take care,  Jim Chuk

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Posted

it was just the long block ,im running a 2.1 rfi redrive ,stratus intakes,dual bing 94s ,dual suppertrapp mufflers. ccr aircraft built long block is reground cams,forged pistons. got the engine 5 months ago.

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Posted

Thanks - I didn't know that they were doing this - got to file it for future considerations - what about those mufflers?  I was thinking about 2 cheap 12" glasspaks.

EDMO

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Posted

I saw an EA-81 with carbs redrive radiator ect on barnstormers for $1800.  Just posted today.  Jim Chuk

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Posted

Thanks guys for the great advice.

@ Jim Chuk, I have left a message for more info on that Soob on Barnstormers.

It sounds like it may be exactly what I am looking for, thanks for the tip

I am going to try to contact Randy Tyler directly regarding the performance of his Avid Plus running the Subaru.

I know he indicated he loves his setup in response to my introductory post.

I've had a photo of his plane as my desktop background as inspiration since joining this group, .... she's a beauty.

I've also read a bunch of his (and others) posts while coveting his Avid (not one of the seven deadly sins) and I believe the first reduction drive he had didn't work for him and he had to replace it with a different unit.

If any of you have any experience (good or bad) with other engines in Avid Plus' please feel free to weigh in.

I would like to get as much of the ugly stuff out of the way before I start covering the fuselage.

Thanks again

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Posted

 I have a soob in my avid plus and manage to keep the battery as far back as I could reach to avoid having to put any lead in the back. It has a gear redrive on it and cruise about 85 mph at 4100 rpm. I only got  it flying last month and have only about 4 hours on it so far. It doesnt  jump off the ground as fast as the kitfox with a 582 in it but that could also be me not used of it yet, but I believe it outclimbs or at least as good as the kitfox.Still got some tweating to get it to fly hands off yet but I have nothing bad to say about the soob.

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Posted

What kind of redrive do you have, Marshawk?

 

I had a buddy with a sub in a Kitfox that used a planetary and tailshaft from a C6 transmission as the redrive.  Sort of odd...

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Posted

I wish someone had tooled up for a silent-chain redrive for the Soob - I think it would be better than belt or gears.  A guy in Nikiski, Alaska made one for the 532 and I think it worked good - I used to have the plans for it.

EDMO

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Posted

The redrive is a 2.58 gear reduction built by Karlo Kunner, he used to do the soob conversions but is retired out in Quebec now, I would throw in a picture but my computer died that has those pictures on it

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Posted

I remember reading about Kunner's redrives - and saw some photos, but no drawings or internal parts.

EDMO

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Posted

Be careful if you google Karlos Kunner redrives like I did.  It gave me nothing that way but an option of a different spelling,  (Kuner.)  Ended up finding out I could meet beautiful blonde Russian girls.  Got out of there quick, hope I (my computer) didn't catch anything  Jim Chuk

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Posted

Just hope you don't catch anything!  :lol:

ED

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Posted

Hey Guys
I talked to the owner of the Subaru that is for sale on Barnstormers (thanks agin Jim C for the heads up)
He knows almost nothing about it except that it came out of a KR2, and that it ran when it came out.
He was going to install it in a Karatoo but found a Continental 65 with a mount that allowed him to bolt it right into his plane, which ended a lot of fitting and fabricating.
I told him the sale is likely a go and that I would call a trucking firm to see what it's going to cost to get it up here.
I figure for 2K (Canadian) it is worth the risk.
Here is a picture of the beast.
He says the Reduction Drive looks manufactured as opposed to homemade, and has numbers stamped on it.
Here are a couple of pictures (I hope)

If the pictures come through, my thanks to C5Engineer's tutorial

Comes on a motor mount bolted to a pallet ... ready to ship
What do you guys think? 

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Posted (edited)

I cant tell much about the engine, except that the redrive is not a Stratus, and not a Dave Johnson Reductions..

2K is too much for shipping - a trucking company with regular trips to Canada should be able to do it for $500 or less. 

I paid $150 to get mine from Canada, but that was an inside job.

For Canadian customs, list it as a used auto engine - aircraft parts customs are a lot higher.

It would be good to know how many hours are on it, and if any mods were made.

Looks like a nose-gear attachment on the mount?

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

From my limited experience and from what I have heard and read, the Subaru engines are pretty bulletproof as long as you make sure you have an adequate cooling system.  The make or break area is with the redrives.  My first motor/redrive (first 3 pictures) looked great and I thought it would be a good one and it is very strong and well built.  I mounted it on a test stand to run it before I put it back on the plane for final bolt up to fly it.  What I found is that the only adjustment was for the belt tension and there was no way to adjust the cog pulleys for parallel alignment and belt tracking.  It was just slightly out of parallel and the belt wanted to run up tight against the limit spacer on the flywheel.  If I loosened the belt it would start to vibrate while running at certain RPM's.  I think a person could develop some very thin shims for the bolt plate on the prop shaft to get the alignment corrected but I decided I wanted a known long term and trouble free solution so I decided to get the Stratus, (last 4 pics).  The advantage of the Stratus is it has the ability to align the prop shaft pully to the crank shaft pully with offset cams on the prop shaft.  It also allows separate tensioning adjustment on the belt and the additional advantage of the Stratus unit is that it has an additional bearing on the end of the crank to take the side load from the belt tension.  I have read that some without this have caused the crank to break but I have no way to validate that claim.  With over 300 hours on it now I have not had to adjust the belt tension or tracking once and the belt still looks like new with no scrubbed rubber dust.  I know there are other good redrives out there but strength, adjustability and crank support are some things that are good to consider. 

 

 

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