The end of the Pursang, an accident account.

[lostman 198]

I know it's been a while since I've posted much on here. Most of you know at least a little about what happened to my wife and I on our last flight just over a month and a half ago. Here is a good description for those that want to know much more about the "fun" we had. The accident has been a not so gentle reminder that none of us know when it will be our time to leave this earth, or by what means. I've lived through a lot of things in my life, this was my third engine out landing off field in 4.5 years.

 

My wife is an author and this is on her webpage. Please read it and we'd love for you to read her other books as well. This is a short but comprehensive blog post about the events that day, from her perspective.

 

www.martinaredrick.com/2014/05/25/final-flight-of-the-avid/

 

 

[marksires 484]

Kenneth,

Excellent writing, and again, very happy you both are ok. I didn't know your wife was a writer, but her books look like the kind I read most of the time. I'll be buying one shortly!

Mark

[EDMO 1078]

Thank you so much for writing the story.  I wanted to leave a nice comment, but didn't want to log on another site.

So glad that both of you walked away because of Kenneth's flying skills.

Now - Kenneth - Come and get this fuselage and lets get that NEW bird built.

EDMO

Edited 28 May 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[SuberAvid 617]

Please thank your wife for writing it up Kenneth.  She did a great job and really brings out your calm skill and of course God's providence in putting all the factors together so you guys could walk away from it. 

 

Sure hope you decide to rebuild it.  I have looked a a few Just Highlanders and STOL's now and they look very close to my Avid+ dimensionally.  If that frame of Ed's is dimensionally close, it sure sounds like it could be a good starting point.

[lostman 198]

Randy, the fuse that Ed has right now is much bigger! It's something in the neighborhood of 17' long without tail feathers. If I remember correctly it's also 48" wide with square sides...plus 30 pounds heavier than an Avid frame.

 

I was up late last night doing some reading about adverse yaw and have some remedies for the rebuild...if it happens. I am leaning more and more towards rebuilding. Anyone have any 4130 sitting around to rebuild a fuse? I still have to strip this one of fabric to see where I'm at with it. Not sure it's worth cutting up and redoing yet though. It's mangled and out of square almost everywhere. It might be easier to start fresh. Now I just need a job to buy the tubing.

 

Thank you for all the kinds words!

[EDMO 1078]

Most of the extra weight on this fuselage is from the cabin forward - that could be changed and lightened a lot easier than trying to build from the tail forward - I think that SkyPirate had a lot of welding time and cost of tubing in building this.

Everyone seemed happy with the extra length, width, performance, and weight, of the Airdale and Fat Avids - they were extended to manage the heavier engines too?

 

Since Lostman is not flying under the LSA rules, he could make a Magnum or better plane without the 1320 lbs weight restrictions, IMO.    How long is the Magnum from firewall to rear of VS?

 

This fuselage will be either taken away, or cut up and scrapped, SOON,  to make my wife happy - it would be a shame to waste it.  I just don't have room to store it inside.

EdMO

Edited 31 May 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[lostman 198]

Did the magnums use the same wing area and platform? If so maybe it's not that bad. I can't help but think that the frontal area of something that much bigger would slow it down considerably though.

[Av8r3400 1178]

The Magnums used the same wing structure as the Avids.

 

Others here could give the detailed difference, but they are basically the same wings.

[jackak 20]

Doug?

[IFMT 36]

Magnum wing is longer. Many run the 150 horse O-320.

Edited 31 May 2014 by IFMT

[SuberAvid 617]

I'll measure my Avid+ length FW back and let you know.  I think it is about 47" wide at the shoulders.  Doug should have the Magnum dimensions and wing size; he probably has them posted on here somewhere.   Was thinking the wing was built a bit stronger but about the same dimensions

[EDMO 1078]

Maybe Lostman can fill in the EW and dimensions of the Pursang too.

EDMO

[akflyer 1427]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avid_Aircraft_Magnum

[lostman 198]

I wish I could fill you in on those things. The approximate measurement from the firewall to the rear of the vertical stabilizer is 14.5'. I never measured it before the accident and it's not exactly in a shape to get a good measurement out of it now.

 

I never knew the empty weight. The w&b provided empty weight was in my opinion not correct. It was done before a lot of the modifications to it and the additions we all know happen over time with a homebuilt. I'm betting the empty weight was around 730-750, but have no way to ever know that for sure know.

 

I also was taking stock last night after stripping off the left side of all fabric when I realized the turtle deck has gone missing. I wouldn't care but the antenna was still attached to it. I know it was there when we loaded up the plane to be removed from the golf course but don't remember ever seeing it again. I'm guessing it became road carnage as the guy that picked it up ended up being less than favorable to deal with and he either kept it or it flew away on his trip to where it was stored and looked through by the FAA.

 

I can tell you that the panel was 35 inches across, and it was probably around 40-42" across the shoulders. I will have to take a tape to that and see if I can tell. It shouldn't be too far off from what I can measure now but I know it has changed some. The cockpit is pretty messed up. From there back until the tail bent in half it is okay for about five feet. If I knew it was straight I would even consider rebuilding based on what I have but I'm not convinced it is straight enough to worry about.

 

I also did some measuring and found that there is about 240 or so feet of tubing in the fuselage. Meaning at the current prices it would cost about $700 in materials just to build again from scratch. There are some areas I'm sure could be salvaged, but not many. I will still have to strip the engine mount and see if it's unharmed too. It appears it is, but I'm not sure until the paint is off of it. Lots to do if I want to try to rebuild. The tail feathers are all toast. Nothing behind the cargo area is left straight enough to be able to use other than a few small tubes and it wouldn't be worth cutting them out to use them I think.

 

Edit: as an after thought, this was a C model to start with. John lengthened it 16 inches total. If anyone has a dimension for any model up to that point it would be a good starting point to know fairly close. Personally I think a stretch of 18-20 inches would help the CG if done properly. I plan on having a larger tail and elevator to counter the extra engine if I rebuild too. Seems Randy's Avid has a tail that is quite a bit bigger.

[SuberAvid 617]

Hi Kenneth,

 

I took some rough measurements of mine yesterday:

FW to rudder hinge is 15'-2"

FW to rear of rudder is 16'-9"

Width at shoulders is 44.5"

Width at panel is 42".

 

Was wondering if you could use the fusaglage that Ed has as a starter and could narrow it up at the cockpit if you wanted to and even shorten it if you wanted to get it dimensionally similar to the Avid+.  Seems like a lot of it may be already good to go and you could just modify it in the places you wanted?

[lostman 198]

Randy, that helps, thanks.

 

I think the fuselage that Ed has is a good starting point I will just have to look it over and see where to go with it. I'm hoping to get it from him this week if we can make our schedule work out. I know the firewall isn't finished and it was fairly cold when I was there last time so I didn't look it over too closely. It is still cheaper than working from scratch and I'm hoping I can make it work for these wings and struts. Amazingly the struts were undamaged. I still need to strip them off to double check them as well. I know that the left wing is undamaged, it's only the right one and main gear that I know will have to be replaced. The left gear is okay. I am seriously considering going to a bush type gear to save on weight though. Plus it would be cheaper for me to fabricate than to buy another one from Grove.

 

I appreciate the dimensions. Looks like your plane is pretty close to what I think Pursang was, plus maybe 2-4 inches, but with a lot more width in the cockpit. I sure wouldn't narrow it too much if I don't have to. I welcome a little more space even though Pursang was fairly comfortable for two.

 

Now to get a hold of Ed and pick it up!

[lostman 198]

I spent about an hour and a half going through what is good vs. bad wreckage today. I found out that the right wing had been bent to about a three degree angle upwards from the strut mounts out. I really thought I had a viable set of wings. This changes the game a lot. After stripping off the fabric I see that there is no damage to the spars other than the slight bend. It's sad since most of the rest of the wing is untouched. The wingtip and flaperon took the brunt of the damage and absorbed most of the impact. The tip from the rear spar forward is even untouched.

 

One thing that completely surprised me is that the right wing was built with 2.5 x .10003 6061 T6 aluminum. Meaning that John must have sourced the material and had to rebuild that wing at one point. I'm not sure why it was even rebuilt other than he told me the wing tip met with the hangar door once, but it was contained to the tip only....really strange. The left wing is the .083 tubing.

 

The left wing is undamaged other than it needs new fabric, mainly from loading, unloading and transport. The guy that picked up the wreckage and moved it so the FAA could look it over didn't take any precautions at all and it was punctured and the fabric banged up in several areas. As well as the pitot tube being complete bent over.

 

I also realized last night that I don't have the turtle deck and that means I'm down the antenna for the comms. Not sure what happened to that, I'm guessing the guy transporting it kept it as a souvenir, but I really don't know. I do know it was there when I took the wings off before he got there to transport it.

 

Does anyone have a source for the 2.5" tubing? I've looked quickly online and don't see anything over the .065 wall. If I'm going to rebuild I'd rather have the heavier stuff. I realize I could probably go through Kitfox, but would rather not have to go that route if I don't absolutely have to. At least I have all the hardware and a lot of the ribs if I rebuild. Just a little let down that the spars are unscratched but bent. Kind of a bummer after thinking I could rebuild a fuselage and recover wings then be good to go again.

[Av8r3400 1178]

My friend built his "Kitfox" wings for his hybrid with locally sourced aluminum tubing and Kitfox sourced internal "I" beams - meaning he used the .0625" wall.   Remember Kitfox used this material for up to a 1550 gross weight.  There are probably 5x as many Kitfox wings flying now as Avids at higher speeds and heavier weights.  Still there has never been an in-flight failure of the wing structure.

 

Avid used the heavier material, with a plywood (?) internal brace.

 

Most any steel / metal supply house can get this tubing.  It's nothing special.

[EDMO 1078]

Lostman,

       Try Shapiro Metals, on Natural Bridge Road, St. Louis, MO - That is where I buy all of my aluminum and steel materials - They are usually 1/2 price of Spruce, but check Spruce catalog for a comparison of prices - Make sure you get T6.

       After crossing the bridge, you go north/west? on I-70 and turn off at Union, the next offramp after Kingshighway - Left on Union to Nat. Bridge, and turn right and a few blocks up on right you will see a red sign, turn into the small fenced parking lot at the sign.

       These are friendly people - I have done business with them for years.

       What about Wicks?   Probably higher than Shapiro tho.

EDMO

Edited 3 Jun 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[dholly 718]

Kenneth -

My thanks to you and DW for sharing the story, a very engaging read to be sure. After seeing the pics; 1.) soo glad your physical injuries were minimal; 2.) me thinks a Pursang II project starting from Ed's bare fuse would be a real time saver.

Based on your previous posts I know you have the skill set to make it happen, but do you have the time is always the question. Gad, I think back on the day I bought my first Mk-IV kit, which snowballed and horse-traded into three more projects, and wonder where the time went...

BTW, if I haven't pointed you to it already, this thread has good info on spar and spar stiffener history that will be helpful if you rebuild new wings.

http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/264-m-t-o-w-modifications/

[lostman 198]

Ed,

 

Thanks, I've checked with them and they don't have the aluminum I need, they do have the 4130 though. I can't seem to find anyone that carries 2.5" .083 wall tubing for spars. Several places online carry the .065, but I want something stiffer for a heavier build. Maybe I'm just overly cautious with the spars.

 

Doug,

 

Thanks for the kind words. If you liked her write up on the accident you should check out her books. Plus it will help us a little financially! I do have the time to rebuild as I'm not working. My biggest issue is the space to work in right now. I have my little Teenie Two in the garage and the Pursang in my big trailer that is usually my work shop so I'm limited. I need to build a shed or at least tarp the Pursang fuse so I have my workspace back I guess.

 

I really was hoping to just have to rebuild the fuselage and install everything else that I have. The right wing be damages wasn't in the plan. I can rebuild it and have the skills to do it, just didn't want to have the extra expense or time put into it.

[EDMO 1078]

Kenneth,

       You can have my blue tarp too - just duct tape the holes I put in it - or go to Harbor Freight and buy one cheap - or both.

Thought you were coming over today?

EdMO

[allonsye 85]

Kenneth -

 

So glad to know you and your wife kept cool heads and managed to survive this incident. I've been seeing too many crashes lately. We've had 2 crashs here in NC within the last week or so that have claimed the lives of 3 people one of whom was an acquaintance.  I'm just getting back into sport-flying after nearly a 2-decade sabbatical. Lately I've been reassessing the risk and wondering if I really want to add more risk to my life as I bring my Avid to airworthiness.

 

Wasn't your Avid on the market/for-sale? It has the Subaru mtr if I recall from posts past.

 

Again, wanted to pass on that I'm glad you're OK.

[lostman 198]

Allonsye,

 

Yes I briefly put the plane up for sale. Mostly because my wife, who actually owned it, didn't like the way it handled. She wanted something that felt more conventional in the controls. It did have the Subaru engine and it's actually usable again, despite it being the reason we went down.

 

I know what you mean about assessing the risk involved. I'm not sure my wife is very with me on the idea of rebuilding. She knows I've escaped death twice in bad accidents, both from low level engine losses. This time she was along. She's basically told me I'm on borrowed time, and that wasn't a threat from her!

 

Thanks for the good wishes.

[marksires 484]

Ed,

 

Thanks, I've checked with them and they don't have the aluminum I need, they do have the 4130 though. I can't seem to find anyone that carries 2.5" .083 wall tubing for spars. Several places online carry the .065, but I want something stiffer for a heavier build. Maybe I'm just overly cautious with the spars.

 

Doug,

 

Thanks for the kind words. If you liked her write up on the accident you should check out her books. Plus it will help us a little financially! I do have the time to rebuild as I'm not working. My biggest issue is the space to work in right now. I have my little Teenie Two in the garage and the Pursang in my big trailer that is usually my work shop so I'm limited. I need to build a shed or at least tarp the Pursang fuse so I have my workspace back I guess.

 

I really was hoping to just have to rebuild the fuselage and install everything else that I have. The right wing be damages wasn't in the plan. I can rebuild it and have the skills to do it, just didn't want to have the extra expense or time put into it.

Wicks has a 4130 sale on right now. I don't see the 2.5"x.083 on the list, but here is a link to the list:

 

http://origin.library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1105202523133-110/wicks+4130+sale.pdf

 

Mark