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Rise of the Phoenix (Pursang rebuild of sorts)

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Posted

Hello all,

 

Once again it's time for me to start a new topic. This one is going to revolve around a rebuild of sorts. It will be based on an Avid design but I'm pretty sure will evolve past what I would have considered doing had the accident not happened.Last Thursday I ran across the river with my little car and trailer to pick up a fuselage from Ed in MO. I believe he told me that Skypirate on here built this monster. I wonder if he builds race cars or dune buggies as it has that kind of look and feel to it.

 

The overall length of just the fuselage is 17', meaning it's a full 3' longer than Pursang's fuselage alone. The Vertical tail needs some work as you will see, it's not braced yet and I'm probably going to thin it down and also make it about 5" taller. The overall length when I'm finished with it should be right at about 14.5', making it closer to an Avid+. I'm still unsure what all to do to this fuse, but it should be interesting when I'm finished with it.

 

My first inclinations are to cut everything that is forward of the smaller tubing off and start to build a new cockpit that replicates the Avid+ dimensions, or at least close to them. I want the extra 6" from what Pursang was to help balance things out a bit better. The vertical stabilizer and rudder will be close to the size of the Avid+ but with a little contour to them if I keep it the way it sits. I'm even toying with the idea of going to an aluminum rudder....but not sure about that one yet.

 

I welcome any thoughts on the cockpit area of this one. It's 42" at the firewall, 44" at the panel and 47" at the rear of the door, which really sticks out a ways. I feel it needs to be cut down to at least reduce the drag on the poor plane! I'm sure whatever I end up doing it will be unique since I'm starting over.

 

The left wing from Pursang will be reused, the right one is bend and unless I can figure out how to straighten the spars from the little bend they have, it will have to be a new wing. Luckily the fuel tanks are both fine. I have no issue building new ribs and should be able to do that fairly quickly with a router and jig. I just didn't want to have to rebuild the wing at all. I can't find .083 spar material anywhere either so I'm going to have to live with .065 from Wicks and install a stiffener. I'm still not sure if the right wing with the .1003 wall tubing has any stiffeners in it. I was very surprised to see that marked on the tubing since I can't find anything online about that size. Who knows where John came up with it.

 

As you can see from the picture of the Pursang fuselage, there wasn't anything left straight, unbroken or even close to in the right place. The firewall is undamaged though and I might be able to cut it away and attach to whatever I end up building. There is also enough straight pieces to use as bracing or triangulation in the new build, whatever it ends up being.

 

The name Phoenix came to me since this is kind of a "rise from the ashes" type of rebuild. I realize there was no fire, but rising from the dirt or dust of the sandtrap is close enough to count for me.

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Posted (edited)

Lostman,

       Sometime during your build, you need to contact EAA and get the builders' kit from them -  Their new Operating Limitations is approved by the FAA, and if you copy it you can do major changes and other things to your new bird without going thru FAA inspections, etc, with only logbook entries.

       You will also need a copy of the FAA paper which has to be filled out by scratchbuilders, unlike the approved kits procedure.

I cant remember all the numbers for these - seems like 2027G for Oplims, and 8xxx or something for the scratchbuilt paper - you can download it and print it from the FAA site, and the EAA kit gives you examples and several other extras.

Looking forward to seeing your design and building photos.

EdMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

If you haven't deregistered the Pursang, I wonder if you keep as much as possible from the original plane and you just say you are rebuilding the Pursang and use it's paperwork.  Shouldn't have to get the FAA involved then at all.  Seems that whole airplanes are built off a data plate at times....  Not sure that is completely legal, but it happens.  Jim Chuk

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Posted (edited)

He can repair the Pursang, but he cant change the original builders name or name of plane - would be a lot simpler, and it is only called "repairs", and he can still get the Oplims changed, but has to have an FAA or DAR airworthiness inspection to do that.

If he "builds" his own plane, and uses the better Oplims, then he is eligible for the repairman's certificate, and can do his own condition inspections, which he needs an A&P to do if he repairs the Pursang.

EDMo

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

This is why I'm still trying to figure out if I want to "rebuild" or build a new plane. I'd love to be able to do my own condition inspections.

 

Ed, can you find the FAR in regards the having a DAR inspection to get the oplims changed? From everything I've read on it, they basically have changed that so you can make changes to an experimental without any other inspections. Doesn't mean those people posting are correct though. I just don't see anything that says you can't make major changes anymore.

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Posted (edited)

I don't have a reference right now - call EAA - this is what I got from them - If John has not changed his original oplims to the later version, you will have to have an airworthiness inspection to change them - If his original oplims state that major changes can be made with an entry in the logbooks, then it is like the late one in AC 2027G - I think you can print that out from the FAA too.

Either way, whether you repair and change Oplims, or build from scratch, you will have to have an airworthiness inspection someday before flying it.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

I guess the only dilemma is whether or not to have to go through a phase 1 flight period again then. I'd rather call it built from scratch and have it inspected that way and be the builder. I don't need John's name on the placard after I build it, then not be able to do the inspections.

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Posted

Just make up your mind to ENJOY the hours getting to know YOUR plane better!

EDMO

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Posted

"Built from parts."

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Posted

"Amateur- built parts, assembled by an amateur builder for his own education and recreation!"

EDMO

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Posted

If you decide to go with a new registration, keep very good logs of your build activities.  You have to prove to the FAA you built 51% of the airplane yourself to get the repairman certificate.  Golden rule of dealing with any government agency, 'If it isn't documented, it didn't happen'.

 

Mark

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Posted

I like having the repairmen certificate and talked Jack into doing the same on his.

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Posted

^^^ agree... as I sit here waiting over a week now for my inspection. :(

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Posted

I regret my decision for taking the easy way out when I did mine and not making myself the builder. Knowing what I know now it would have been a fairly simple process. Instead I spent a year chasing down bill of sales so I could get it registered in my name and then I ended up needing a new AW cert and Phase I testing in the end anyways.

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Posted (edited)

     I agree on getting your ticket to do your own condition inspections - I am an A&P, and have enough experience with Kitfoxes to give a good inspection to a Kitfox or Avid - but what about the A&P who spent all his time working on spam cans, or on commercial airliners, or military machines - Yes, your plane is very basic, and a bolt is a bolt, But you know more about your bird than he would -

     And then, there is the one who asks stupid questions like, "Where is your minimum equipment list?", and you don't have a clue as to how to answer that - Note:  The correct answer is in your oplims, which require NO equipment in day VFR flights, and you do not have a Part 23 aircraft. - and what do you do if he says you failed the inspection - spend more money?

     IMO, This is like any part of life - if you have choices, make the best choice, and depend on yourself - not others - for some of us, that is the reason we fly experimentals.

EDMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri
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Posted

I have to agree with getting the repairman's certificate with the build. For those that have had to register their own build, what did the DAR or FAA examiner want to see as far as documentation? I don't know if there is really any build book regulations but I do understand they want to know that you know your airframe and actually built it. Any advice in this area is more than welcome. I'm at a point I am going to start building now rather than tear things apart too, which is nice. 

 

after spending the morning cleaning up everything from the complete tear down of the airframe. There isn't anything still attached to anything else anymore, other than I pulled the panel out still assembles. It only took me about 20 hours or so to take it all apart. Looks like the final tally is that I have good struts, one good wing that needs to be recovered and fix flaperon hangers, although I really am seriously thinking I'm going to go to a flap/aileron setup instead, since the flaperons are both shot. The firewall is actually salvageable, which would save me a lot of build time. the engine mount has one tube that is bent slightly and I might have to replace that one. The seats are fine as are the seatbelts, and rudder pedals. The left side of the HS is okay so I have that for a good pattern. I also have the elevator that only needs minor rework to be use, although I'm still thinking I should make it slightly bigger for the extra tail, but it would be more effective just because of the arm where it will be located on the new plane. The doors are fine other than a minor weld break, which is great actually. I figured they would be gone. The top cowling is fine as well and only the bottom of the lower cowling needs to be reworked. It shouldn't be too hard, plus I always thought it was way too low how it hung down about 6" below the firewall. The tailwheel spring was slightly bent but I can straighten that in a press. I think I'm going to be into the new fuselage about 100' in tubing to get it ready to go. I have serious questions about the triangulation that the builder did though and might have to reinforce it in several areas, especially the vertical stabilizer since it's not even close to being ready to use. I have the left gear that is still okay and could probably send the right one back to Ronnie to get it straightened and reheat treated. I'm still thinking I might make provisions for both this set up and the bungee style ones though. I really liked the damping the aluminum gear had and haven't flown anything with cub style gear other than a champ....years ago. Any thoughts on gear style? I actually think it would be cheaper for me to build an entire new cub style gear than to have the one side of mine fixed. 

 

Also I'd like to know what you all think of having a slightly bigger elevator? I'm already going to build the rudder closer to the size that Randy has on his plane. I figure that should get me closer. 

 

In the end I'm going to be around 6" longer than Pursang was, just in the fuselage area and probably another few inches in the over length once I get the larger rudder built as well. 

 

Joey, why did end up having to do the phase 1 flying time after all? I guess I never read about that part. From what Ed was saying earlier it appears I might have to do that anyway, if that's the case there is no question that I want to be the builder rather than having it still being serial number .001 from John Larsen.

 

I'm going to try to get pictures of the old and new fuselages together this afternoon so you can see how big the differences are in the way it sits currently.

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Posted

As promised here are the pictures I took. I was surprised when I put the two side by side at how the bigger fuselage is actually narrower. This actually really surprised me since I hadn't measured it that direction at the same points. Keep in mind I'm actually going to shorten the vertical stabilizer 6" from front to back.

 

Please take a look and tell me what you all think of the triangulation on the tail. I realize it's different but it's also simpler in some ways. I plan to redo the vertical stabilizer and the tail group, plus extend it about 6" taller to match dimensions from Randy's plane. The cockpit will have to be either completely redone or have some major changes to it. I personally think it's too wide for the Subaru engine, and don't really need something that large. If I was going to need that much space I would have bought a 172!

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Posted

Lostman,

       Get a spiral bound notebook, and start from scratch and document everything you make and do with dates - start taking photos of everything as you build - the FAA requires both.  Copy the scratch-builders questionnaire 8xxx? from the FAA site, and you will have a better sense of what to document - like EVERYTHING!   One of the first questions is:  Did you make the longerons?  Did you install the longerons?  What percent was commercial made?  What percent did you make?  What percent did you assemble / Install? - and it just keeps on going like that thru the whole plane  - Of course you are not making the wheels, engine, instruments, etc., but you are going to take credit for assembling them and installing them.

        I haven't done it, because I work alone, but I heard of one inspector who didn't want to accept the builder as "the builder" because there was no photo of him doing something.   My hands are in some of my photos, and if they want more of me then I will just have to get someone to take another photo - don't make sense to me, and don't think it is required, but sometimes you just have to kiss ass.  Hope this helps.

EDMO

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Posted

So I've been neglecting the project for the past couple weeks. Seems aviation, even though my wife is a pilot, maybe the end of this relationship. She's not wanting to even talk to me when I bring up the plane build. I'm seriously thinking the Pursang, that was supposed to give us some flying time together, may be working in the opposite end of the relationship spectrum. Have you ever heard of AID's? Aviation Induced Divorce syndrome?

 

Anyway, the update: today I brought both fuselages from the back of the house and put them in the driveway. Next I pulled out my angle grinder and cut off wheel. I cut the big fuselage right where the tail comes into the thicker tubing of the cockpit. It weighs considerably less and now fits in the garage too. Then I started work on the Pursang fuse, or what was left of it. The more I look at it, the more I realize there is really nothing left straight to work with. I made a few cuts to try to get the firewall off but ended up burning through the last two cut off wheels I had for my grinder so had to quit. I even tried to cut it with my sawzall and a metal blade. That just burned up my metal blade though. I need to stick to the cut off wheel.

 

At just before 8 PM I made a Harbor Freight run to pick up a 10 pack of wheels. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to cut some more of the firewall and free it from it's mangled body. The firewall itself is mostly unharmed, just twisted due to the upright supports of the cockpit being twisted when the right wing dug into the ground and forced everything to move in ways it wasn't designed to.

 

I will have another go at it tomorrow. I might even be bringing out the big metal chop saw for the few places I can get it into for the cutting. It sure would be easier and go through much less disc that way, I'm sure.

 

No pictures of progress since my camera battery decided to die after taking a few pictures. Now it doesn't seem to take a charge anymore.

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Posted

So I've been neglecting the project for the past couple weeks. Seems aviation, even though my wife is a pilot, maybe the end of this relationship. She's not wanting to even talk to me when I bring up the plane build. I'm seriously thinking the Pursang, that was supposed to give us some flying time together, may be working in the opposite end of the relationship spectrum. Have you ever heard of AID's? Aviation Induced Divorce syndrome?

 

Trust me, the AIDS symptoms are exponentially worse when you have a non-flying better half!

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Posted

Hi Kenneth,

 

I was sorry to hear about your accident, and I'm also sorry to hear about the way this project has affected things with your wife. I hope things will work out for the best eventually.

 

As far as cutting fuselage members goes, I have done a fair amount of this when removing my front tricycle structure, and also on my seat truss. The biggest job though was removing about 100 tabs that the PO added, but I will not be using and didn't want the weight (about 1 lb). I started out removing the tabs with a cutoff wheel, but I was looking for a better method pretty soon. My Sawzall with metal blade cut through them like butter. After all that cutting, I'm still on the same blade going strong. Not sure why your blade didn't last. Was the blade a good brand (Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc.)?

 

Luke D.

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Posted (edited)

Mine is a very understanding, non-flyer - She just says when I finish this plane, and if I fly and die, that she is going to collect the insurance, sell the scraps and buy a new outfit, get her hair and makeup done, and look good at my burial in case there is an eligible man in the crowd!

I told her that would be OK with me!  :lol:

EdMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

I was thinking about the saw blade last night and wasn't sure what brand it was. Now that I've looked at it again, I'm still not sure. Meaning, it obviously was not a good brand blade. Time to pony up a couple dollars to buy one. I'm sure it would be better than eating through the cut off wheels. They are nice where they need to be used, but I'm sure most of the cuts could be made just as good, if not better with the saw.

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Posted

I have had better luck with the cutoff wheels on cutting tubing - broke lots of saw blades before I learned.

EdMO

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Posted

You must be using a different style Ed. The blades that go in my Sawzall would be pretty tough to break cutting on this thin walled tube. Sometimes the best tool depends on the situation though. There were a few places I would have had a hard time fitting a cutoff wheel. One thing I like about the sawzall is that I can reach back into tight spots with just the end of the blade and make a nice clean cut. I guess whatever does the job is the best  :P

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