Empty weight

[Bandit 286]

Weighed my Bandit today, came up with around 480 lbs. empty. I just used bathroom scales. I weighed myself at work, then on the bathroom scales. They were fairly close. As always It has gained a little since new though.

[EDMO 1078]

Ultralights always get off quicker and climb faster.   They also cant take as much turbulence.   

What is your wing loading?

Friday was one of those very rare days here in Mizry - CAVU - No wind, not a cloud in the sky - and not one bump - Temps were in mid-70s, very cool for mid-July here. 

 We flew the J3 halfway West across Missouri, then turned South almost to the Arkansas border, then East to just above the Missouri Bootheel, then North up the Mississippi River to head back home.   Almost 12 hours of flight time, with 8 stops and 4 T&Go - One Wonderful day of flying.   And, I forgot my camera! 

EDMO - hoping for 800 ew, like the Cub, but with higher wing loading.

Edited 21 Jul 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[Guest]

480 is amazing!

[EDMO 1078]

480 and 1000 hours are both amazing.   How many engines / overhauls?

EdMo

[Bandit 286]

It is not a ultralight, it is a Mark IV Avid. It should handle turbulance better than a heavy airplane, less stress on the airframe. I kept it light and simple. No finished interior, only the basic legal instruments, sling seat, stol wing, recoil start, no electrical system, no radio or gps, no al leading edge, cargo compartment but no door, lightweight Stits fabric with minimun coats of dope on it. The fabric looks just about as good today as it did in 1996. Just a couple of small cracks under the door where my hip hits when starting. I started out at 456 but installed the plastic tanks and the bush gear with the Aero Classic 6x800x21 tubes and tires which added a few extra lbs. Same engine 3 overhauls. First one around $1500, 2cd $1200 no new crank, last one $4000 everything brand new except carbs,reduction case and crank case. Its has been a great airplane. The only thing is I use it for local flying only. At 7O mph it is not much of a cross country airplane.

[EDMO 1078]

Bandit,

      Sounds like you have done a great job making and flying a plane that suits your needs.

The "ultralight" comment was not a critical comment, just comparing your light bird with most others of the AFF family.

      I know that the comment about "light weight planes cant take turbulence as well" defies logic, but we have gone thru that scenario on this site and others, and it actually holds true scientifically, but hard to imagine without some proven facts being written.   Wing-loading is the deciding factor.  Heavier wing-loaded planes don't get tossed as violently as lighter ones.

Wishing you "Good Flying" and Congrats on your successes.

EDMO 

Edited 22 Jul 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[Bandit 286]

I new what you meant Ed, I agree, a heavier airplane will take turbulance better, but wouldn't a lighter plane have less stress on the airframe in rough air? It would be like hanging 200lbs in the middle of a 12ft 2x2 with a guy on each end and bouncing it as hard as they could,then hang 50lbs in the same spot and do the same. I think there would be more stress on the 2x2 with the heavier weight.

[EDMO 1078]

Bandit,

      I agree with what you said because it sounds logical - However, physics is not the same as we think logical.  It has something to do with vertical velocity, stall angles and kinetic energy - You are going to have to go to an engineer for the explanation - I have read it several times, and it sort-of makes sense.   something like comparing a rock with a kite???   This is partly why ultralights cant handle wind and rough air - I think the dividing line is somewhere around 6 or 7 lbs/square foot? 

Like feeling the bumps in a J3 compared to a smoother ride in a Comanche.

EDMO

Edited 23 Jul 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[Bandit 286]

The technical stuff is all Greek to me. Turbulence scares me that's why I fly early mornings and late in the day.

[EDMO 1078]

Me too - just cant take all those bumps like when I was young  - years ago I hit a hole in the sky in a 150 and when I hit bottom something tore in my center chest - hurt so bad I had to find an alternate airport and get another pilot to bring me and the plane home - had a real bad day - real careful now.

- Not early morning person tho - I fly late and hope my lights get me by as the sun goes down -

My flying buddy is the opposite - he gets me up before daylight, and I wake up about 2 hours into the flight!

EDMO

Edited 23 Jul 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[marksires 484]

Yes, for turbulence, heavier is better.  G forces is all about acceleration, and heavier means more inertia and acceleration is slower.  The way I think about it my dog grabbing a rat and shaking it (light - head accelerates, neck snaps) versus grabbing a big groundhog and shaking it (heavy, can't accelerate it as fast, neck doesn't snap, dog gets bit and runs away whining).  Same dog, same force used to shake, but heavier has less damage.

Mark

[Bandit 286]

I guess I was thinking you hang more weight on the exact same wing you would get more wing flex in a heavier airplane than a light one in rough air.

[marksires 484]

I guess I was thinking you hang more weight on the exact same wing you would get more wing flex in a heavier airplane than a light one in rough air.

That would be true if the force increased in proportion to the weight increase, but with turbulence, the force is the same, so heavier wing loading results in less response to the force, so less damage.  If in my analogy the rat was shaken by a chihuhua, and the groundhog was shaken by a great dane, both would probably have the same damage.

 

 

 

Mark

[Luked 71]

Hmm... I think what Bandit is trying to say is that the extra mass in the fuselage holds itself in space more than less mass would. Since the extra mass has less "give", the wings give more. When turbulence hits the light plane, the mass moves more easily with the turbulence resulting in less need for the wings to give.

 

No doubt the ride is better in the heavier plane though. You'll be getting thrown around a bit more in the light plane.

 

Luke D.

[EDMO 1078]

Thanks for the explan Mark - How much for that dog? 

I was thinking about tossing a tennis ball straight up, and doing the same with a bowling ball - but I like yours better.

EDmo

[Bandit 286]

Ed are you going to make Airventure? Our bags are packed leaving tomorrow!

[marksires 484]

Thanks for the explan Mark - How much for that dog? 

I was thinking about tossing a tennis ball straight up, and doing the same with a bowling ball - but I like yours better.

EDmo

How much for that dog?  Depends on the day.... 

[EDMO 1078]

Bandit,

      sorry I cant make Osh - wish I could be there and join in the fun the AFF guys should have together.  My wings are now 90%, and very tired of looking at them - going to hang the 2nd one on the wall in a few days and start making some wood parts as I figure out how to make my ailerons / flaps / controls all work and fit the fuselage.

      Not a good comparison, but Sam Colt made his first prototype revolver out of wood - so it must be a practical way to go for someone who don't do CAD.

Wishing all of you a good time at Osh - don't bash me too bad, since I cant be there!   I will be looking for you on the CD/DVD.   

EDMO

Edited 24 Jul 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[SuberAvid 617]

It is not a ultralight, it is a Mark IV Avid. It should handle turbulance better than a heavy airplane, less stress on the airframe. I kept it light and simple. No finished interior, only the basic legal instruments, sling seat, stol wing, recoil start, no electrical system, no radio or gps, no al leading edge, cargo compartment but no door, lightweight Stits fabric with minimun coats of dope on it. The fabric looks just about as good today as it did in 1996. Just a couple of small cracks under the door where my hip hits when starting. I started out at 456 but installed the plastic tanks and the bush gear with the Aero Classic 6x800x21 tubes and tires which added a few extra lbs. Same engine 3 overhauls. First one around $1500, 2cd $1200 no new crank, last one $4000 everything brand new except carbs,reduction case and crank case. Its has been a great airplane. The only thing is I use it for local flying only. At 7O mph it is not much of a cross country airplane.

Great achievment Mark!  I need lessons from you on making it light.  That, or I got two for the price of one.    Mine does pretty good for the mission I use it for though.  Still a ways out from 1000 hours on this one yet.  Hope you all have a great get together at Osh!  Wish I could be there too.

Edited 25 Jul 2014 by SuberAvid

[C5Engineer 1170]

Cant wait to meet you Mark!