Earth X Battery Warning!!!

77 posts in this topic

Posted

Did you ever hear back from EarthX about this?

I just did... I was emailed by our latest member to sign up on the forum (earthx).... I called and talked to the person who emailed me and she was unable to answer any of my questions but at my request or prompting she has said she will have the "engineer" who dealt with this issue post up here to state what they believe was done wrong that led to the melt down.

I will wait to see what they post up here before further elaborating on the subject.  I can tell you that despite being asked to remove this thread I will leave it up for all to see the answer and I am sure future responses to this thread.

 

:BC:

Dear AvidFoxFlyer subscribers,

We recently had a customer contact EarthX about this forum and requested we respond to the thread as he felt it would be very beneficial to do so for potential customers. As an experimental aircraft builder, you have many choices of what to use to build your aircraft. As a manufacturer of experimental aircraft batteries, EarthX does many things to help assist you in deciding what battery is the best option for you.

In this particular situation, we warn to not use a lithium battery with an engine designed for pull start only or a vintage engine that uses Magneto type charging systems as it is not compatible. Here is the link from the website under experimental aircrafts where you can read the technical reasons behind this:  http://earthxmotorsports.com/engine-charging-systems-use-lithium-batteries. Here is also a quote from this article, “Simply put, if the engine was designed for a pull start, do not use a lithium battery, if the engine was designed for an electric start, it is acceptable to use a lithium battery.

We also have an experimental aircraft page http://earthxmotorsports.com/product-category/experimental-aircraft that first line reads “Only the ETX Hundred series -( ETX680C, ETX680,  ETX900 and the ETX1200) are recommended for your primary engine aircraft battery due to the internal monitoring and redundant BMS electronics. The battery used here was the ETX12A that has a max charging amp rating of 20amps, which this particular system was much higher than that. There is also a 22 page manual with lots of details about the products and their uses on the website. We do try to educate and assist in choosing the correct battery for your plane, but in the end, what you choose is your choice. (A gasoline engine says to not use Diesel fuel but if someone does, there will be issues).

In this particular situation, and based on customer service, EarthX did have an Electrical Engineer review the schematics for this customer which had many things that needed to be addressed in the modifications done, lithium battery or not, and he was told that a lithium battery, not just the EarthX brand, can not be used in his aircraft and we refunded his money.

Lithium batteries can be a great alternative to a lead acid battery if it is compatible with your aircraft and designed to work within the parameters specified.  EarthX has been approved for use by Rotax, the largest experimental aircraft manufacturer in the world for the 912 engines, and also has been approved by Continental Motors, UL Power Engines, Viking Engines and Aerovee Engines. EarthX is also being used by over 20+ OEM (original equipment manufacturer) such as Sonex aircraft, Kitfox Aircraft, Mosquito helicopters, Viking Aircrafts etc. and this number is rising. Please, if you have questions about use and if it works with your aircraft, and you cannot find the answers you seek, contact us directly at (970) 674-8884 or at sales@earthxmotorsports.com. 

 

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Posted (edited)

"Fools rush in, where Angels fear to tread!"  Did they mention Boeing Engineering too? 

Sorry Robert, not calling you a fool - Just someone who learned by their bad experience, and thankfully, shared with us.    EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted (edited)

cough cough... bullshit... there are LOTS of guys running lithiums in the ultralights for starting and running radios etc.  The charge coils are the exact same in the rotax engine no matter if your running electric start or pull start.  The regulator rectifier is also the same.  This response is nothing more than a cookie cutter un-informed response to the issue of using a lithium battery with a rotax system.  Further more, the rotax charge coils dont put out even CLOSE to 20 amps.

It was a nice try, but as I stated before, have the engineer get on here and explain why you think this was the users fault and not the fault of the battery  :)  The charging system for the rotax engines is the EXACT SAME as any motorcycle or snowmobile engine....

I truly do welcome an honest and realistic answer.  If these batteries are put into ANY vehicle that has the potential to burn down, there should be built in direct short and over charge protection.  I know the guy marketing the lithium packs for ultralights has this protection. 

 

:BC:

Edited by akflyer
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Posted (edited)

I guess instead of admitting that their R&D department has unproven technology, they could at least be honest enough to say that there may be defective products than can slip by in their inspection procedures.   A few years ago I bought the best Delco Chevy truck battery, and it was a dud - furthermore, I had it replaced twice by the dealer and both of them were bad - finally went to Wally World and bought a cheap one and it worked good.       We had good service out of the last 3 Ford cars we bought, but our 2008 Escape has had computer problems since before the warranty ran out - electronics can go bad in any system - fortunately, it hasn't caught on fire, yet....

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

wow after being off line and away from home for the last couple months i finally log on to find one of my old threads resurrected. lol. Just to be clear from my experience, i did speak with an earth X rep (whom I believe was an engineer) he gave me some very specific things to check which I did with the help of my local club all checked out well. when all was said and done I cleaned up the mess put in a different battery and put 65 good hours on it with no problems what so ever. I'm no engineer maybe I just had the wrong battery for the 582 engine maybe it was a fluke bad battery I duno. that said I've heard great things about these batteries from others using them in their airplanes with no issues. I believe I just got one with a defect in it. in the end EarthX did refund my money and no one was hurt just frustrated so I guess its just a lesson learned for me. take it all for what its worth to you

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Posted (edited)

High Country,   Welcome back to earthshaking posts you have missed - check out the ones on "Removing Silicone" -  Both Doug and Allonseye will educate you!

:lol:  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

wow after being off line and away from home for the last couple months i finally log on to find one of my old threads resurrected. lol. Just to be clear from my experience, i did speak with an earth X rep (whom I believe was an engineer) he gave me some very specific things to check which I did with the help of my local club all checked out well. when all was said and done I cleaned up the mess put in a different battery and put 65 good hours on it with no problems what so ever. I'm no engineer maybe I just had the wrong battery for the 582 engine maybe it was a fluke bad battery I duno. that said I've heard great things about these batteries from others using them in their airplanes with no issues. I believe I just got one with a defect in it. in the end EarthX did refund my money and no one was hurt just frustrated so I guess its just a lesson learned for me. take it all for what its worth to you

Well did you have a ETX Hundred series battery. If you did not install a aircraft battery and the company gave you your money back I would say that is one hell of a good company.

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Posted

I have about three hundred hours on my Earth X and it's working great.  I would buy another one.

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Posted (edited)

IMHO Lithium batteries are not ready for aircraft.   They are not even safe enough for the automotive industry to start using them yet. If you buy lithium batteries for your RC hobby, you will get recommendations to also buy the flameproof  charging bag/box because of a charging lithium battery's propensity to spontaneously combust when not correctly charged (which is easy to do). 

 These batteries not only have to be very carefully charged and carefully matched to their load, but they also have to be balanced. The individual cells within the battery must all be the same voltage when the load is applied.   It takes a computerized charging machine to do this properly, it's called a balanced charger.

 Even a Prius where everything about its design is about weight and aerodynamics, and has a Lithium battery for driving the electric motors still uses a lead acid battery for starting the engine.   The lithium battery has an advanced computer with it to manage the charging and load currents   

EarthX  seems to be failing in its duty to point out the serious dangers of using their batteries without proper charge, balance, and load management   This thread should remain in hopes that other aviators will find it before they are tempted by the tremendous power to weight advantage these batteries offer.

 

Edited by Knuckledragger
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Posted

Lithium Ion is a generic term and could refer to any battery made with “lithium” as one of the components. Here is some of the common commercially available lithium batteries:

Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2)

Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4)

Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2)

Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2)

Lithium Titanate (Li4Ti5O12)

 Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

A “lithium” battery is the most commonly used power source in today’s technology and is not new technology. It has been used extensively since the 1970’s, mainly by the military (as they were the only ones who could afford it). They power many medical devices (such as Pace Makers), cell phones, lap tops, engine starting and main power sources to name a few. Most RC cars use Lithium Cobalt Oxide, not Lithium Iron Phosphate which is the chemistry used in the EarthX brand. The reason behind using LifePo4 as a starter battery is:

  • Safety- It is the most abuse tolerant of all the Lithium Ion chemistries -- one of the highest thermal runaway thresholds 270°C (518°F).

  • Practicality –each charged cell is 3.65V, so four cells in series is the correct full-charge voltage for a starter battery at 14.6V

  • Longevity  - cycle life (2,000+ depending on DOD)

  • High Discharge Rate

    The disadvantage of using a LifePo4 battery is:

  • Specific energy is less than that of other Li-ion

  • Self-discharge is higher than other Li-ion batteries, but still better than other battery types

  • Cold temperature operation can also be an issue with Li-phosphate as a starter battery

      (below 0 deg F)

     

    As Knuckledragger mentions, it is important to protect the cells which is why EarthX has not only one (BMS) battery management system but 2 for redundancy that is controlled by a microprocessor. There is also an LED battery fault light indicator that alerts you to the state of health of your battery and state of charge.  The BMS protects from over discharge, overcharge, short circuit, cell balancing and excessive cranking (heat) plus has the ability to alert you to a possible problem with the battery with a red LED light that would illuminate if you need to evaluate your battery. We also have HIGHLIGHTER yellow stickers you must remove in order to install the battery that warns you not to use a defective battery and it is all also located in many places such as the packaging, manual, FAQ etc.

    If you did ignore all of the warnings and proceeded to use a defective lithium battery where you are pushing a possible 120 amps through it, yes, it can have what we call a catastrophic failure as it can cause the cells to rupture and produce smoke and/or flames. A lead acid battery can also have a catastrophic failure and explode acid all over, and if you ignore the fuel gauge and try to continue to fly without gasoline, you will also have a catastrophic failure. 

    “Lithium batteries are not ready for aircrafts.”  Here’s a thought: if you have flown on a commercial flight in the last 15 years, you have had hundreds of lithium batteries in that aircraft alone from the cell phones and laptops onboard. Now if you add up the amount of flights around the world daily for the past 15 years with each of them having hundreds of lithium batteries on board…...the amount of incidents are very rare.  Technology advancements are great and where would we be if we didn't have people like the Wright Brothers, or Boeing? 

Sincerely,

Kathy at EarthX

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Posted

Ha Amen to that, bout time someone sets the record strait on this, There will be a Earth X battery going into my kitfox,

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Posted (edited)

Ha Amen to that, bout time someone sets the record strait on this, There will be a Earth X battery going into my kitfox,

I don't believe all the "ad-people" who try to sell a product.  I used to work on the Stock Exchange:  To me this is a high-risk, low-dividend, investment into the unproven.  There were photos posted on here for one of their battery melt-downs already, and Boeing showed the big one.   Cellphones and laptops have caught on fire too - I don't intend to have that happen to a plane I am flying in!  

If I cant fly with the weight of a 680 battery, then I had better lighten up my design, or go on a diet!   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

To each his own.

You, not the government, are responsible for you, no matter what they say.     Lou

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Posted (edited)

I like the info that "Flywise",the Catalina guy, posted about the LiFePO4 batteries and the link he gave - sounds safer than EarthX to me.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

I like the info that "Flywise",the Catalina guy, posted about the LiFePO4 batteries and the link he gave - sounds safer than EarthX to me.   EDMO

EarthX is a LiFePO4 battery Ed...

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Posted (edited)

I like the info that "Flywise",the Catalina guy, posted about the LiFePO4 batteries and the link he gave - sounds safer than EarthX to me.   EDMO

EarthX is a LiFePO4 battery Ed...

If EarthX is the same as the battery that Flywise described, and in his link, then why do they talk about their (advanced, computerized, double-charging system with all the safeguards?) when his article says "It can be charged with a regular charger" ??? Don't seem the same to me!  Read his posts in Catalina threads.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

LiFePO4 batteries can't be 'charged with a regular charger' as far as I'm aware.  All are sold with chemistry specific chargers, just like any other Lithium battery.  What makes LiFePO4 batteries safer is the chemistry is more stable than the more common Lithium battery (the kind in your cellphone/tablet/laptop) that like to catch fire and burn.  If a cell gets compromised, they are supposed to just melt without catching fire, which is what happened in this thread.

You might get away with charging them with a 'regular' charger a few times, but the cells still need to be balanced, and the heat generated during charging needs to be monitored, etc.  In a confined space, a regular charger with no electronics can overheat them (but that can happen with a lead acid battery too).  EarthX advertises that all the required circuitry is built in to the battery itself, not an external charger, so it can be connected to a 'regular charger', but all the smart charging still happens, it just doesn't happen in an external device.  

See the wikipedia page, and go to the advantage/disadvantages and safety sections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

 

Mark

 

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Posted

If your battery "just melts" will your engine keep running?   EDMO

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Posted

As long as it doesn't have an electronic ignition it should, and even then as long as the alternator doesn't die (and is wired to provide its own field circuit when running).

The more I read about LiFePO4 batteries, the more I think the incident here was just a manufacturing defect, it is pretty tough to make an undamaged LiFePO4 battery behave badly.

 

Mark

 

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Posted

I am curious as to what is the most common battery in power tools,as these seem to get plenty of abuse like stalling, repeated charge/discharge etc.These seem to be safe(they do have specific chargers) if earthx uses the same technology they may be worth a shot.

I had a regulator failure a few years ago that literally cooked my lead acid battery(it was still hot an hour later) 

I would like to think this new battery's safeguards would have prevented a meltdown.

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Posted

I am curious as to what is the most common battery in power tools,as these seem to get plenty of abuse like stalling, repeated charge/discharge etc.These seem to be safe(they do have specific chargers) if earthx uses the same technology they may be worth a shot.

I had a regulator failure a few years ago that literally cooked my lead acid battery(it was still hot an hour later) 

I would like to think this new battery's safeguards would have prevented a meltdown.

My power tools have NiCad batteries - Some of the new ones have Lithium ???  EDMO

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Posted

Ha, lovin this chit. More gas Ed.

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Posted (edited)

I don't like being in the dark - told the wife to put LED lights in my coffin and hook up a solar panel to them - but no Lithium batteries to "just melt"!   I've got dimmable black lights in my bedroom - told the wife that "Black Lights Matter"! :lol:  EDMO

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

You got a laugh out of me Ed.  Black lights matter..... :-)  JImChuk

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Posted (edited)

I appreciate Kathy's post and the research behind it. Is it enough for me to bet my life on?  No   Time will tell for me.  I'm looking forward to this technology proving itself safe over more time - I really would like to dump that hunk of lead, but the sheer simplicity of lead acid batteries is a plus for me :)

Edited by Knuckledragger
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