Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Flight Controls

55 posts in this topic

Posted

Now, we are starting on the flight controls. From the manual it indicates that you must install the floorboards first. Is this true? Can we do part of this prior to the installation of the floor boards? From your pictures me thinks me see that you have installed the bell cranks, mixers and some such before you installed the floor boards. Now, I know from your pic of the Marine ply that you have to install that prior to installing the control column housing. So, my question is can I install some of the other stuff I mentioned before I place the floor board in?

Also, on installing the floor board, how hard was that and do you have any pointers from when you installed yours?

I don't think it makes a bit of difference if you do most of the control install without fitting the floorboards before final assembly and adjustments. In fact, would I recommend it. Locating the correct position for the control tube friction block and rudder pedal brackets is a lot easier when you can actually see the mounting tabs!

Now I am -very- interested in your comments about installing these flight controls, particularly the control column tube. The one I got with my kit was clearly the same as provided with the Mk-IV kits, and too darn short for the wider Avid+. It is impossible to correctly position the sticks, centered between the piloit and co-pilot's legs.

Dare I ask... how long is your column?  :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hellluuuuooo,

On the size of the control column...we figured a picture is worth a a thousand words. So we attached some.....RESIZED....pictures for your perusal and enjoyment.

Side note: Could not figure out how to use the resize feature until while sending this picture, I right clicked to preview the picture before upload and low and behold a new little word on the drop down menu...."resize"  :hammerhead: I guess even I can figure it out now.

By the way Lenny, your home state has been featured in one of the new release movies. The Movie "The Proposal" has part of it filmed up there in Gods Country. See, we in the lower 48 are finnally getting some taste.

710_1e62a3a8c7af00a9e9120e2653229da9ca3c

712_719562a70a530a5de6e4fd05e9e9ccfa79f7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Yep, looks like you got short shafted too! Here's why I think that...

Each seat back is 15" wide. If I mark the top center of each seat back 7-1/2" from each side, then measure between those two seat center points, I get 19-1/2". If I measure between the bolts that secure the sticks in the control tube sockets, I get 16-1/2". So, if you ask me, this control tube is about 3" too short to position each stick directly between the legs on both sides.

Go sit in the plane with the sticks and check it out. Try as I might, even twisting the curved sticks to allow different offsets each way etc., I couldn't come up with a way to position things so as to provide a full range of stick motion without hitting my legs. In my case, I think it will be even more problematic because I'm adding a center console and Johnson bar for the amphib gear, and have relocated my flap handle to the left of center.

I've pretty much decided just to cut and extend the control tube by 2-1/2". I don't think the entire 3" is necessary as there is a bit more leg room to the pilot's right side than left. You can move your right knee over the console some but, on the left, the side of the fuse ain't gonna change. Was trying to improvise a way to use the existing end bracket tabs rather than cut off and re-weld.

Still trying to find a work around on this one... 

714_ec50e3038fd466ced9c133312b9a4e55d88a

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

maybe Jackak will chime in here.  I am pretty certain he had to cut his control tube assembly.  JACK, HEY JACK.... JAAAAAAAAACK :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hey Guys,

Yes, I had to extend my control tube.  Mine was originally installed in a "C" model and was way too short.  It hit the copilot in the left knee.  My solution was to extend the tube and the small tube inside 5". This additional length provided a tube that is 22 1/2" long.  It pretty much centers the sticks in front of each seat.  The tube could have been just a bit longer, but it should work out.  I think each of us is going to have to measure our fuselage and seat placement to come to the final adjustment required for comfortable placement of the sticks. 

To hold the tube in the new position, I just bent up a piece of steel strap and used some epoxy to hold it in place prior to bolting the control tube into the fuselage.  The strap looks like a one of the conduit clamps used to mount electrical conduit to a wall, like a hat.  I just glued it in place because it goes under the tube that the factory provided tabs are welded to and is held in place by the mount bolts once installed.

Hope this helps,

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

A comment on the floor boards if I might.  By installing your floorboards first, you can see how well your control linkages in front of the seat truss will clear.  The "T" shaped link that operates the flap bellcranks was too long and hit the floorboard; The aileron bellcrank that attaches to the stick control tube also hit.  I had to send both of them back to Airdale for mods. You can also determine how long the bolts need to be that attach your control tube and rudder pedals to the floor structure.  With no belly pan installed, you can easily drill the floorboards for the mounting screws. I used some of the slip-on nut plates rather than the ones that require riveting. They're not structural and do lock the screws in place when tightened.

I miss the tech orders too, John. You should have seen me trying to figure where they put the rig-pins in order to set up the controls. A 2x4 and c-clamps just doesn't seem to be quite right.

When it comes down to it, I think each of us is building a prototype, each close, but never exactly the same. Sharing info sure does help.  Randy and I work together frequently, I'm an old maintainer and he's an engineer.  Works out well.

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

This additional length provided a tube that is 22 1/2" long.  It pretty much centers the sticks in front of each seat.  The tube could have been just a bit longer, but it should work out.

Looks like my and John's control tubes are both 20" LOA. Again, based on my measures, I was going to extend 2-1/2"... exactly what you did. Hearing your "could have been longer" comment, maybe I'll do 3" now. Good input, thanks.

To hold the tube in the new position, I just bent up a piece of steel strap and used some epoxy to hold it in place prior to bolting the control tube into the fuselage.  The strap looks like a one of the conduit clamps used to mount electrical conduit to a wall, like a hat.  I just glued it in place because it goes under the tube that the factory provided tabs are welded to and is held in place by the mount bolts once installed.

Yep, I thought about this but it just seemed too darn easy.  ;D

thanks Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

A comment on the floor boards if I might.  By installing your floorboards first, you can see how well your control linkages in front of the seat truss will clear.  The "T" shaped link that operates the flap bellcranks was too long and hit the floorboard; The aileron bellcrank that attaches to the stick control tube also hit.  I had to send both of them back to Airdale for mods.

Hmm, how thick are your floorboards? The only interference I had was when I tried to use 1/4" ply floorboards occurred at the mixer end of the aileron bellcrank. The lower end of the flaperon 'T-link' -just barely- touched. Changing to the 1/8" ply solved all issues, although you could easily get another 1/8" clearance on the aileron bellcrank simply by removing a small amount on the lower end of the bellcrank mounting bushing welded to the seat truss and adding another spacer washer. Come to think of it, I did have one bolt that was packaged with the rest of the aileron mixer universal joint bolts that had a low profile slotted head rather than the typical hex head. I used that for the connection at the aforementioned interference point noted in the pic. Of course, all castle nuts are to the upside for inspection. 

You can also determine how long the bolts need to be that attach your control tube and rudder pedals to the floor structure.  With no belly pan installed, you can easily drill the floorboards for the mounting screws. I used some of the slip-on nut plates rather than the ones that require riveting. They're not structural and do lock the screws in place when tightened.

Dunno about John's kit, but all my hardware was neatly packaged and marked not only with AN #'s, but also location! Easy to cross check application with the pull sheets and so far, knock wood, everything has been the right size, length etc. No complaints what so ever from this perspective.

Sharing info sure does help.  Randy and I work together frequently, I'm an old maintainer and he's an engineer.  Works out well.

I'm getting along slow but sure. One thing for certain, advice from those that have blazed the trail ahead is invaluable and much appreciated. I hope you and Randy continue to share your knowledge and experience.

-Doug

716_0d2dd45f7ffbecd9c1afebdb54ac48769407

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Happy 4th,

My floorboards are made out of 1/8" material and the links wouldn't clear.  When I got my "kit" there was no hardware or information included.  Everything was left up to the builder and what you could get out of a Mark IV manual if you had one.  Things really improved later.

This forum is going to help everyone.

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Jack,

Sounds like the Fat Avid Fuselage Upgrade was just that... a fuselage rather than a 'kit'. I have no idea how many fat fuse upgrades were sold by Airdale but, if I understood Steve correctly, there were only (6) full Avid+ kits sold. The original owner of my kit ordered direct from Airdale and took delivery Jan. 2006. The kit number noted on the original invoice says #51006, which leads me to believe mine may be the last (latest?) full kit sold. In conversation with John (jbowaaf) a couple years ago, it sounded like his was manufactured just before mine based on his purchase date. Maybe his paperwork says #51005? All I know is the full kit owners are in a pretty darn small club. In the past few years of research, I've only been able to locate (2) other full kits so John and I make (4). I hope to meet the other two someday (and the new owner of Vince Nartker's tri-gear 912uls Avid+), so I actively post to my online builder log and these forums hoping to leave them a Google search trail. I talked to Brett @ Airdale recently, but he hasn't had time to get thru all the jumbled paperwork records he just bought.

-Doug

____________________________

Independence Day Wishes to all U.S. Patriots and Service Personnel!

"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood, and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men." ~ Samuel Adams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Doug,

You're probably right on the numbers of kits and fuselages sold.  At one point I asked Steve if anyone had completed one and he said that he hadn't heard of any and that they just seem to be changing hands.  I guess that's fairly common in the kit building world.  I know that sometimes it's hard to keep you level of enthusiasm up.  This winter I just took a break from building and relaxed over the holidays. 

When I talked to Brett a while back it sounded like he was going to focus on the Airdale kits for the time being.  I'm sure he'll make any parts we need and has come through anytime I needed something.

Have you pretty much decided on the 100 hp Rotax for power?  Did you buy one?  I think that Airdale is making the engine mount for them, aren't they?  If you do get one from them, I'd make a paper template of your firewall mount points so you can be sure it will fit. The mount for my Subaru went back and for because of some confusion and the sheer number of firewall variations they deal with.

Catch you later,

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Thanks Jack,

At least (2) of the (6) kits are finished and flying. John and I are still building, but no clue on the remaining (2). Yes, it does seem a lot of kits get bought, then life circumstances change or the reality of the effort involved becomes more apparent and dreams get sold. Some are sad stories, but many have happy endings because it also makes for some great deals. I could never afford the price of a new KF kit today. I was the 3rd owner of my Mk-IV kit and the 2nd for this Avid+. In my case, the dream is alive and well, just a little FATTER!  ;D  The fellow who bot my Mk-IV is a local, experienced builder. Most recent completion was a Just Escapade w/ Jab2200. From the last pics I saw he has made great headway and I wouldn't be surprised to see it fly late this year or next.

I can see most details clearly in my head but the engine dilemma has got me going in circles. If I was on wheel gear I'd use the Jab, but with the floats I've settled on the 912ul for the gearbox and big prop. I also would like the option of using an IFA prop someday, many more options available for the Rotax in that case. The 100hp sure would nice but don't like the higher price and premium auto gas requirement. Regular gas, specially on floats, and a bit less fuel burn sounds good to me. After seeing the performance of Paul Seehafer's 775lb 80hp KF IV-1200 on Aerocet amphibs the last few years at OSH, I think it'll be plenty for the Avid+. With my 'heavy speedwing', leading edge cuff and Hoerner tips, I'll have a near identical wing area and airfoil.

I understand why Brett would concentrate on the Airdale kits, make's good business sense for him. I'm not at all worried about parts availability, aside from the fuse and flight controls everything else is old school Avid which he has promised to support. And yes, he can provide me with a 912 ring mount. Apparently this was an Airdale innovation and great improvement over the old bed mount. Given the co$t -2x the Jab mount- I hope so. Anyhoo, I'm still trying to get a pic of the 912 firewall attach stations, hard to believe the 2x4 two row pattern I have will work without adding a couple additional lower points. What is Randy using on his new fuse?

P.S. - Sorry John, didn't meant to hijack the Flight Controls thread, just a bit chatty I guess! Get anything done yesterday besides BBQ and beer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Howdy all from Bayooouu country,

Well, after a three day hiatus to that irritating thing called regular employment, I am back and what to my wondering eyes should appear...uuucckk!!

Well, I guess we are glad to find out now versus later the hard way. (RE:extending control column 2.5")

So, Jack, How do we, who are woefully inadequate in the area of welding and metal work/machinist work, extend this control column? Also, as I don't remember who said on this or the other thread, "a picture is worth a thousand words." Can you or did you take pictures of the extension process? I am somewhat familiar with what you are describing but a picture to see and understand how you mounted the extension would be mucho appreciated! Also, why not just re-weld a new tab further out versus the hose clamping method?

I am sorry if some of these question seem a little elementary. I am very Anal retentive...notice the capital "A."

It would be greatly appreciated if you could lend any further instruction as to the extension...One thing to note is that we have assembled our control column already (done at Airdale...builders assist) so this will provide even further fun, thinking, of disassembly and then all that will be needed to expand on internal parts of control column.

Okay I think I have beat this one enough  :deadhorse:

glad to be back at it....

PS I think I am gonna try to go past and assemble the mixer and other parts if I can before I do this extension...input?

Keep 'Em Flyin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

looks like the builder assist and factory support was not too damn up on the product they were selling.  How the bad word could they miss the mark by so much on such an important item.  :hammerhead:

Oh well, it will still be well worth your efforts the first ime you break ground with it!  Keep pushing forward and you will be in the air before you know it!

:beerchug:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'll try to copy some pictures if the extended control column and mount bracket.

Cajun,  There really wasn't a process involved in the extension, I just bought the tubing I needed from a local supplier, took everything to the machine and welding shop and returned with my credit card.  All I had to do was tell them where to cut the tube and insert the extension.

730_536b276cbde0d8dc7e12ef66b796f2f6deb8

732_559b2c9dbc0ba222fee24bb48cd53715c29d

734_134d96aac89f44c8bb3beb337e609c3afd5e

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I didn't see the thing to click  to reduce the resolution.  I hope the pictures help a little.  The extension is the tube between the pieces of tape.  You can see where the right side stick would have ended up if not extended. 

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I like the conduit clamp idea to relocate the mounting bracket!  and I bet our dear coons cousins can figure it out based off the pics!  It sure cleared it up for me.  I think I will do the same for my "C" cause right now even with the sticks bent and agled out, I cant get full left in with a passeger stick in the hole.

thanks for posting the pics!

:beerchug:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Thanks Jack. Looks like you just slipped a larger 'sleeve' over the control tube? By a stroke of luck, you didn't happen to note the tube dimensions at the time did you? A bit hard to mic my control tube with the powder coat but it may have started as 1.375" OD x 0.049" Wall x 1.277 ID 4130 Normalized. I was thinking to cut and slip a length of 1.5" OD x 0.058" Wall x 1.384" ID over ($5.14/ft @ Wicks) and weld.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hey Doug,

I was Actually able to get a piece of tubing the right size, or very close, 1 3/8"x.o49".  The welding shop was able to cut it square and butt weld it.  I don't see why a sleeve wouldn't work though.  It would be plenty strong and much area to weld.

Leni,

The flat stock was easy to bend into the right shape for the support bracket.  I think I used some .065" sheet that I cut a strip off of and just hammered it into shape. Could you believe how short my control column was?  No way I could make it work.

Jack 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Doug,

I was looking over some of the earlier conversation and saw your problem with the johnson bar.  Could you move it back onto the area between the seats?  Unless you fly with some very thin, people there's no way to get any left stick with the lever pulled.  Have you figured out where you'll put your water rudder retraction cable?  Going to be busy between the seats.

Good luck.

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

On the water rudder cable... I had mine between the seats but as you said it gor busy in that area.. you have more room to deal with than I do.  I like the way Skystar did theres.  There is a little lever on the float strut just below the pilots door.  you can flip it up or down and it has a little catch to hold it up.  Works GREAT and is out of the way.  when you swap from floats it is one less cable to have to dis-connect to pull the floats.  Iwill get a pick of it when I get home if you are interested in seeing how they did it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Jack-

Aha, I missed that in the pic. I think I prefer a sleeve rather than butt joint on this part. Both are probably just fine strength-wise but this is one part a little overkill is ok by me. Plus, I may be able to simply Hysol a sleeve in place and save a bit of welding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Jack,

I was doing the same thing with my pictures but it was either Lenny or Doug posted a link to something called "power tools" that allowed me download an image resizer. Once installed, what I did was to do the attachment thing at the bottom of the post...."Browse" then when I got to my pictures and the specific one I wanted, I would right click on it and a drop down menu would appear. I originally did this to use the preview feature which allowed me to see my picture before doing the final step in posting. Anyway after downloading the image resizer a new item appeared on that menu "resize picture." It gives you several options; I choose the "medium" size which seems to do very nicely in our format. What it does is to create a copy and place it in the same folder without changing your original. Unfortunately, you have to close and reopen to find the new copy.

Hope it helps,

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Thanks Greg, I'll check that out next time I post some pictures.

Doug,  The sleeve and Hysol is an interesting approach.  I think I'd consider putting a couple stainless steel pop rivets in each end too.  They're really tough and should provide the needed connection should the Hysol develop a problem. I say this because I don't know how the Hysol holds up to shear loads.

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

If there is a strength issue with a butt weld then your welder has no business holding a tig torch, wire feed gun, Stick, or oxy acetylene torch in his hand ( the short would be between the shoulder and the hold and not between the electrode and the base material) :lol: .  I am sure there are alot more stick forces at work in an A10 than on the control colum of these little planes.  The stick forces are VERY light.  Just to qualify my ever so humble opinion, I have been in the welding industry for my entire working career.  I be a certified welding inspector and am currently the QC/FCO manager over the largest maintenance/construction contract that Connoco Phillips has in the world.  I deal with all types of exotic materials including 4130.  If you were to run an engineering analysis, I am sure you could get away with just four 1/2" tack welds around the tube.  May not set well with your head looking down and seeing a gap in your life line, but it will have more than enough strength.

With all this being said, at the end of the day it is all about YOUR peace of mind when you are in the seat of YOUR plane cruising over nasty mountains in moderate turbulance.

:beerchug:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0