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Flight Controls

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Posted · Report post

Lenny,

I am glad to hear it about the weld part as we may have to go the same route as Jack.

All,

We are not sure of how we are to proceed yet. Has anyone thought of/tried designing/building a modified stick. We were of a thought that three inches of offset could be accomplished by an off set stick. I am not sure if it would work as the sleeve coming out of the control column rises up a good bit.

Thoughts?

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Doug,

Been sneaking around over in the Amphib section to see how the other half lives and noticed some good pictures of your mixer in the background. Would you mind posting some pictures of your mixer/flight control rigging. I learned a lot just by seeing the ones on the Amphib thread.

Anything would be appreciated.

PS we could also start posting them in the new build pictures thread

Toodles from Tigerland

Keep 'Em Flyin

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Hey Greg,

Here ya go. This mixer design is absolute genius IMHO, kudos to Steve Winder or John Larsen or whomever was responsible for the design. I'm very interested in getting everything rigged properly and measuring the differential.

I'm going to post the pics here in the Flight Controls thread for better topic continuity and search function. I'll be watching your Build Pictures thread closely to see just how fast you guys are closing on me. You may be a good source of motivation!

[edit] sorry about the dark pics, must have been working at night  :)

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Posted · Report post

As to me I have hit a bout of illness for the past five days. Trying to come out of it but nothing yet (fever temp ..no big deal just inconvenient). So its been VERY frustrating for me having to sit on my hands so to speak.

Not a peep for almost a week? Sounds like that bout of illness kicked yer azz!  :flush:

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Yes and nary too far from the Mark...On my back for almost a month now...DISGUSTING. Besides being out of work in one of the most dangerous times in my industries, really sucks as now I have to get back up to same levels. Still not clear, back to the Docs and all that....yada yada yada.

I know you all are where I wish I could have been...Oshkosh. Enjoy it and bring us back all kinds of good info from the get togethers and forums...pictures please!!

Safe journey home!!

Greg and the Cajun Militia

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Hey Greg- get well soon, sounds like a looong time down. About the flaperon cables... no instructions but they connect at the under-seat mixer bell cranks directly to the flaperon horns, secured by the brackets on the fuse inside the baggage area. The vertical flaperon push/pull tubes from the mixer to the flaperon horn as shown in the Mk-IV manual were totally replaced with the Avid+ design. I secured the cable ID tag around the cable with a small zip tie and put that end under the seat. Gotta pack, wheels up for OSH @ 0600.

Doug

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Doug & Cajun,

A comment on the control cables for the flaperons.  Along with my "kit" I received two flat plates about the same size as the tabs welded on to the fuselage for attaching the push-pull cables.  I asked Steve Winder what they were for and was informed that they could be used as the piece that the cable fastened to and then bolted to the fuselage bracket to get the final alignment with the flaperon.  When Randy and I were fighting with the wing attach problem he discovered that because of the shape of the Avid + fuselage, the arm on the end of the flaperon was about 1" too short.  The arm, where it attaches to the flaperon needs to be extended to actually be inside of the fuselage, otherwise it end about where the bearing point is on the fuselage and turtle deck.  Doug, if you still have your wings attached, maybe you could check to see how yours line up. 

Did either of you guys get any information on the angles that we should shoot for when adjusting the travel on the flaperons?  I know that the new f7a bellcranks provide a differential, but I've never seen any published numbers to adjust to. 

Jack   

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Posted · Report post

I did the F7a mod on mine, but I am not sure our controls or mixers are the same so I may lead you down the wrong path.

I can see if I still have the crappy instructions that I got from someone else on how to set it up as mine did not come with destructions either..

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Leni,

It would be great to see the info you have on rigging the flaperons.  I have some from a "Dr. Kitfox"  or something like that, but am leary about how well they apply to the Avid.  I seem to remember 14 deg up and around 27 deg. down as the limits I arrived at after quite a few hours of making tiny little adjustments. Or was it the opposite?  Boy I wish I'd have saved my notes.

Jack 

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Posted · Report post

should be the opposite.  You will have more up than down with the F7A arms.

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Jack -

I removed my wings before I left for OSH, but I'll try to take a few measures and see if anything on mime looks too short. If I understand correctly, the full length rod running through the flaperon needs to be ~1" longer in order to extend into the fuselage but the length of the flaperon horn arm that attaches to the flaperon rod itself is ok. Did I get that right?

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cajun-

Keep in mind, while you may have an Avid Flyer Mk-IV builder manual for reference, you are building an Airdale Flyer Avid+ aircraft. The mixer modification being discussed was for Avid Flyer models, not the Airdale Avid+. Different models, different mixers. Refer to the 'original F7 vs. modified F7a bell crank' pic attached (from the Avid Flyer Yahoo Group photo folder) and compare to our Avid+ mixer bell cranks. You will see ours are already shaped like the modified Avid Flyer bell cranks. You do not need to do anything.

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Doug,

Right, it looks like extending the flaperon shaft or the part of the flaperon control arm that attaches to it(slides over it) will need to be extended about an inch.  I'm not sure which would be the easiest to extend. Could be we could extend the control arm end that slides over the flaperon shaft around an inch and a half, then shorten it a bit at a time 'til it lines up with the flex shaft. 

Jack

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Jack-

Ok, got it. My flaperon arms are not riveted to the rod yet so there is some back and forth slide / adjustability, maybe enough? I'll try to get out a tape in the next day or two, still dousing fires from being out of office for a few days...

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Doug,

That would be great if you could measure your flaperon arms and see how much we have to extend them.  Does your construction manual cover the flaperon adjustments for the Avid+?

Jack

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Cajun,

I think I'll stay here with the discussion on the Avid +controls. Thanks.

Jack

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Greg-

Re: the F7a mod, you've asked the same question at least a half dozen times in two different threads now. I've answered in both threads already, the most recent only a few posts back in this very thread... with pictures. Despite their general similarities, the Avid and Airdale Flyer models are different aircraft. The Airdale Avid+ flight control system was completely redesigned and IMHO a great improvement over the older Avid Flyer models. This F7a bell crank mixer mod is for the mixer on Avid Flyer models only and not applicable to our Airdale Avid+ model.

Bottom line... YOU DON'T NEED IT!  :hammerhead:

Re: the flaperon cables, I already posted pics of the cable routing and explained that the cables connect directly from the mixer aileron bell cranks to the flaperon control arms. I don't know what more I can say or do. In any event, there are no "control rods". The Avid+ flight control system does away with the solid control rods between mixer and flaperon arm (as used and shown in the Avid Flyer Mk-IV manual) in favor of the flexible cable linkages.

Re: the support material received with your kit... or lack thereof. The reality is, the documentation that came with the Avid+ does not include step-by step building instructions. NO one has a Avid+ specific builder manual, the Airdale Flyer Co. simply provided Avid Flyer Mk-IV manuals. In my case, the Mk-IV manual I have is Revision 8/16/96 and includes Sections I-XIII plus a handful of 4"x6" photos of the Avid+ mixer assembly (no written instructions). I also have the factory pull sheets which is basically a parts list that describe each kit part and where it goes. I was very fortunate that the hardware in the kit I bought was separately packaged and labeled with both AN and location descriptions, a huge help when cross-referenced to the pull sheets.

Bellyaching about the lack of detailed manuals is a waste of time -it is what it is- but we can be of much better assistance to each other if we at least understand who has what. Some time ago I asked you to detail exactly what support material you have, including the revision date of your builder's manual, but you never answered. If you do not have a copy of Airdale's Avid+ pull sheets I would be happy to scan and post them here. If you don't know what a pull sheet is, go to the Avid Flyer Mk-IV forum on this site. I posted the pull sheets from my old Mk-IV project there a short while ago.

Honestly, I hope this all doesn't come off sounding too harsh because I really, truly don't mind helping when and if I can. But I prefer to be building or working on solutions to new issues than repeating information already covered. Gotta keep moving forward or this project will never get done!

  :beerchug:

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Jack-

The depth of my flaperon control horn sleeves is 4-1/2". Interestingly, my flaperon spar rods are not the same length. On one flaperon I have 6-1/2" and 5-3/8" of spar rod protruding, and on the other I have 7-1/2" and 7-1/2" protruding. Go figure.

I held a T-square against the rear carry-thru to extend the center line of the rear spar pin hole aft. As the pic shows, that is about 4-1/2" outside the fuse at the point I believe the control horn support blocks are located. The distance between the C/L of the root rib flaperon hinge position and the C/L of the rear spar pin hole looks to be 3/4". So add those together and my best guesstimate suggests I need a minimum of 5-1/4" from the C/L of the root rib hinge to get the horn arm inside the fuse.

Because the two flaperons are identical and hinge position pre-determined, in my case where the control horns are not yet attached to the flaperon spar rods, I figure I can use either on whatever side I want and simply trim the protruding rod end waste on the outboard sides after mounting. If correct, then I'll have inboard spar rod ends of 6-1/2" on one side and 7-1/2" on the other to work with. If at least 50% of the control horn sleeve should be slipped over the rod end for structural integrity, I think I have as much as 8" from the C/L's of the root hinge to the horn arm hinge to work with. Time will tell, but it doesn't look like I will run into the same issue you and Randy have re-using your wings. Not sure the pics will add much but I'll post them anyways.

Re: flaperon adjustments, all reference I have is to the Mk-IV. Pertinent info in my manual is found in Sec VIII, Chap 2. 'The Flaperons' and Sec VIII, Chap 5. 'Rigging The Wings & Flaperons'. If you don't have these, let me know. Also, while it pertains to the old Avid Flyer mixer mod, our bell cranks are similar to the new F7a's so it might be helpful to keep this in mind: Original [Avid Flyer] mixer bell cranks allowed 26* degs Up and 26* degs Down travel on the flaperons when used as ailerons, each side moving the same. The modified mixer allows approx 26* degs up and 18* degs down travel (approx 2:1 differential), plus some differential with flaps down.

(To avoid any confusion, the modification to the Avid Flyer mixing assembly replaces the (2) flaperon bell crank p/n F-7's with reshaped ones called F-7A and the (2) bits of threaded rod F-37 with short pieces of bent 3/8" tubing with threaded ends and is NOT applicable to the redesigned Airdale Flyer Avid+ mixer.)  

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Posted · Report post

Actually that cleared it up...lost in translation I guess. But, we have two control rods that I incorrectly interpretted as being a part of the Mod. Hence the confusion. Somehow I missed in your previous messages that the cables attached directly to the flaperons with not control rod in between.

As to the manuals and getting you that information, I fell sick with a virus that knocked me out of work and any and all activity for a month. Not to bore you with my histrionics, but in the process and in the disconnect, I did forget about your request, which incidentally occured the day before I was laid low.

As always thanks for the Help

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Greg-

A month long virus, eh? I thought you guys were supposed to be tough?! Maybe you all better stop using swamp water for the crawfish boils, lol.

So what are these 'control rods' you are talking about? I just posted the Avid+ pullsheets in case you don't have them, should make identifying and pinpointing the end location of all the parts a whole lot easier.

-Mr. Sensitivity  :)

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Doug,

Thanks for the measurements.  I have 4 1/8" from the center line of the root hinge to the inside of the control horn arm.  So, looks like I'll need to extend the control horn at least a inch plus the amount inside the fuselage to the control cable.

Been teaching myself to spray paint.  I'm using what Wagner calls a conversion gun, it allows you to use a smaller compressor to get hvlp output.  It seems to be working ok with the primer.  I'll have to see what happens when I start spraying the color coats.  I can see why shops charge so much for doing a paint job.  Slow and tedious!  Especially when you don't have a paint booth. The inside of my garage looks like a polyethylene palace.

Thanks again for the measurements,

Jack 

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Jack-

-sigh- I wish I covered and painting already!

Friend Russ up the road here covered his Mk-IV with Stewarts this year and just finished spraying the UV coats in his garage 'paint booth' too. He said yesterday he's ready to tackle the color and it sure sounded like everything was working well for him. He's been real happy with the Stewarts system. I tried to find their booth last week for current pricing but vendors, etc were all changed around this year. Progress I guess...

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I looked for them too, Doug and never found them.  There's a bunch of YouTube Videos here.

I've got the poly-products on my plane now and will repair that for short term, but would seriously consider the Stewart's if I can find out more about it when recover time comes.

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Larry-  I have a CD that came with the promo pkg from Stewarts a couple years ago, but I think the YouTube videos collectively actually do a better job showing the process. I hadn't found those and just watched 'em all, thanks.

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Doug,

Does Russ know about using a postal scale to measure his components when mixing the color coats?  When I talked to the Stewart System folks at Arlington, they recommended weighing each part rather than using a paint cup to determine the correct mix.  Many times faster and more accurate too.  I got mine at Staples for around $38.00.  They, Stewart Systems, have a dvd on using the scale and will give it to you for free.  Nice thing about that scale is that it has a tare wt. function that lets you weigh only the contents of the paint container, and not the container itself and it will weigh up to 5 lbs.

Jack

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