Oratex covering

[1avidflyer 1983]

I called the guy in Alaska to try to get a price for the Oartex today.  He said he was in a meeting and couldn't talk just then, so I said I would email him and he could reply to it.  I did, but didn't hear anything back from him yet.  I did get the door made for the rear battery access and the fabric mostly on both sides of the Avid.  Under the watchful eye of my dog Molly.  Ever see a dog sit like this?  Jim Chuk

[FredStork 453]

The iron is for waxing skis... I'm sure BetterAircraftFabric will sell all you need when buying the fabric... I got mine from Oracover in Germany. Minor price difference from getting it off the web. Better Aircraft Fabric mention a stainless steel iron (mine is aluminum) that might be preferable as it leaves less trace and therefore reduce (but not eliminate) the need for protective paper when using it.    

[KFfan 151]

My female American Bull Dog sits like that...on the couch

I think my oldest daughter taught her bad habits when she, the dog, was a pup

[Emory Bored 61]

The iron is for waxing skis... I'm sure BetterAircraftFabric will sell all you need when buying the fabric... I got mine from Oracover in Germany. Minor price difference from getting it off the web. Better Aircraft Fabric mention a stainless steel iron (mine is aluminum) that might be preferable as it leaves less trace and therefore reduce (but not eliminate) the need for protective paper when using it.    

I've been reading this with some interest Fred.  I know this is off topic but I'm very interested in your longer term experience with the Simonini Victor 2.  Have you written a follow up on your blog?

[1avidflyer 1983]

I ended up getting ahold of the USA distributor for Oratex.  Lars Gleitsmann.   He is in Alaska.  He also emailed me some prices for the fabric and glue.  Price is $54.95 per square yard for the 600 grade with is the lighter weight stuff.  $76.95 for the 6000 grade stuff.   They do have some that has a slight unevenness to the color that they will sell for 25% less.  Glue is $149 a quart, and he says it will take between 2 and 3 quarts to do an Avid/Kitfox.  Finish tapes are rather expensive, 2 wide is $149 for an 84' long roll, these have a sticky back, for a peal and stick application.  You can also use left over Oratex for tapes, you just have to coat the back with the glue and iron it on.   It  seems that you don't absolutely  have to use the tapes, but they will make seams prettier,  I told him about the electric fabric cutter I have and he wanted to see pictures of it which I sent him.  My guess is he is going to get one.  Bottom line he said was you could do an Avid or Kitfox for $2500 or so if you went with the least of everything.   That's with no tapes and the seconds fabric.  If you went all out on the recover, he gave a price of $4700 maximum.   There are lots of u tube videos about it, looked at one this morning where they were weighing 1 sq ft of different fabrics removed from planes to compare to Oratex.  Went from 78 grams in heavy painted ceconite to 9 or 11 grams in the lighter weight Oratex in white (natural) color.  Well I better get out to work on the Avid or at least something productive.  Jim Chuk

[EDMO 1078]

Jim,  Is that a "delivered" price to lower 48?

That glue is reedickulas priced - I wish I had some of Fred's scraps to try with 3M clear hotmelt glue.  Everything is higher in Alaska - You should try buying groceries there - Wish there was a distributer in the mainland for us.  Sure is a lot more than Fred paid to cover his.  I would like to see your electric fabric cutter too - where and what price?

EdMO

Edited 21 Nov 2015 by EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hi Ed, we didn't talk about shipping prices.  In Europe, the price in dollars would be just under $40.  Lars is a bunch higher than that. If you look at my 'I've got it covered' topic, look back a few posts and you will see my electric fabric cutter.  Also more pics of my battery hatch.  Jim Chuk

[1avidflyer 1983]

I was doing some more digging, and found a price list for 2014 for Oratex stuff from a dealer in England.  Way less than the price from Alaska.  At that point, the euro was worth more compared to the dollar, but I don't think that should matter for comparison purposes.  http://www.g-tlac.com/oratex.html  Jim Chuk

[EDMO 1078]

I was doing some more digging, and found a price list for 2014 for Oratex stuff from a dealer in England.  Way less than the price from Alaska.  At that point, the euro was worth more compared to the dollar, but I don't think that should matter for comparison purposes.  http://www.g-tlac.com/oratex.html  Jim Chuk

Thanks Jim,  I talked to Lars a long time ago on the phone when they were giving out the free samples in Oskosh, and got nothing.

I will try the other contacts.  I know how they operate in Alaska!  Lars gets it wholesale, and doubles his price.

BTW:  I think the VAT is 19% and not 15% - More politicians stealing money any way they can!

EdMO

Edited 23 Nov 2015 by EDMO

[EDMO 1078]

Jim, I downloaded and printed the instructions from the site you listed in England.   I think the way we covered with fabric and Stewarts system is easier and better - that should also work with Oratex.   Now got to convert C temps to F temps so I can understand them.

EDMO

 

[TJay 1041]

54 dollars a yard isn't bad when you figure your getting a nice shinney finish, Comparing it to polyfiber with poly brush, poly spray, and an Aerothane finish. Does the 600 fabric have a wing loading weight?

[EDMO 1078]

54 dollars a yard isn't bad when you figure your getting a nice shinney finish, Comparing it to polyfiber with poly brush, poly spray, and an Aerothane finish. Does the 600 fabric have a wing loading weight?

I think it says, "10 pounds/sq.ft." - good enough for a 1320 GW for our birds.

EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

The 600 stands for fabric is good for an airplane with gross weight up to 600 Kilograms. 600 kg=1320 lbs.  Ed you are right on the VAT being 19% in England.  Maybe it was 15% in other European countries, don't know why I remembered it that way.  I'm not sure if the finish On the Oratex is as shiny as Aerothane, that stuff looks like it's wet. Jim Chuk

[EDMO 1078]

The 600 stands for fabric is good for an airplane with gross weight up to 600 Kilograms. 600 kg=1320 lbs.  Ed you are right on the VAT being 19% in England.  Maybe it was 15% in other European countries, don't know why I remembered it that way.  I'm not sure if the finish On the Oratex is as shiny as Aerothane, that stuff looks like it's wet. Jim Chuk

I had a small piece of the silver - donno if it was 6000 or 600 but it was shiny - the 600 is supposed to be tighter weave, like the 1.7 fabric is tighter weave than the 2.7 - This will not have a "wet" look like Stewarts or Aerothane, although I can't compare those two.

Jim, I was referring to the VAT being 19% in Germany - donno about England...

EDMO

Edited 24 Nov 2015 by EDMO

[RobS 52]

Fred,

I've been watching some of your Oratex videos (and others) and am wondering what you used to seal the capstrips before applying the hot melt glue? The ribs on my Avid were varnished before I bought the kit, but the capstrips are bare. I plan to reseal everything before covering and want to make sure I use something that is compatible with the glue.

[EDMO 1078]

Fred,

I've been watching some of your Oratex videos (and others) and am wondering what you used to seal the capstrips before applying the hot melt glue? The ribs on my Avid were varnished before I bought the kit, but the capstrips are bare. I plan to reseal everything before covering and want to make sure I use something that is compatible with the glue.

I have been wondering about those instructions too - Most glues stick to wood better than to varnish, and the instructions for other glues tell you to leave the capstrips bare, and sand them before gluing.  The instructions for Stewart's hot-melt glue tells you to leave the capstrips bare for better adhesion.

EDMO

Edited 16 Jan 2016 by EDMO

[FredStork 453]

Fred,

I've been watching some of your Oratex videos (and others) and am wondering what you used to seal the capstrips before applying the hot melt glue? The ribs on my Avid were varnished before I bought the kit, but the capstrips are bare. I plan to reseal everything before covering and want to make sure I use something that is compatible with the glue.

Fred,

I've been watching some of your Oratex videos (and others) and am wondering what you used to seal the capstrips before applying the hot melt glue? The ribs on my Avid were varnished before I bought the kit, but the capstrips are bare. I plan to reseal everything before covering and want to make sure I use something that is compatible with the glue.

 

Hi Rob,

if you want to glue anything to wood make sure you glue it to the wood and not to anything else. Varnish have none (or only few) of the characteristics of glue so you would glue the fabric to varnish and have to count on the much weaker link, varnish - wood, to keep your fabric to the frame. And the few interesting characteristics of the varnish might be altered when applying 130 degree Celsius to it. The minimum impact to the varnish would probably be premature aging, and we don't want that...

So make sure you remove any trace of varnish before applying the hot melt and sand the surface, this is to open the pores to make sure the hot melt can enter the wood and create superior bond. You should obviously apply a appropriate protection to any surface not covered with hot melt and fabric...

[Av8r3400 1178]

I haven't read any installation instructions for Oratex, so excuse my ignorance. 

Is this product to be glued to all aircraft ribs?  What I mean is if you are covering a Cub for example, are you supposed to glue to the narrow (1/2") wide ribs?  What about rib stitching? Is that not done with this product?

What about the tail?  Or fuselage stringers?

Edited 16 Jan 2016 by Av8r3400

[EDMO 1078]

I haven't read any installation instructions for Oratex, so excuse my ignorance. 

Is this product to be glued to all aircraft ribs?  What I mean is if you are covering a Cub for example, are you supposed to glue to the narrow (1/2") wide ribs?  What about rib stitching? Is that not done with this product?

What about the tail?  Or fuselage stringers?

Larry,  I don't want you to miss Fred's answer to this, but I can tell you that we used Stewarts hot-melt glue on the J3.  In that case you put your adhesive tape, or whatever they call it, on each rib, but you only glue around the wing, let it dry, apply fabric and iron the glued areas.  After it is stretched, you put your reinforcement tape on and ribstitch, then put your finishing tapes over the ribstitches - With Stewarts, you have to glue the finishing tapes, so you put glue on the wing where you want finishing tapes and over the ribs and stitches, let it dry, then put your tape on and iron it, and another layer of glue which is wiped off before it dries.  

On the Kitfox, with Stewarts, you hot-melt glue every rib, and stretch between ribs.  And ribstitching is an option - not a requirement.

Oratex finishing tapes are pre-glued, so only need to be ironed, and can be straight-edged or pinked, whatever is your choice.

I am seriously considering using Oratex on my fuselage, because I don't have to remove or cover up all the instruments, interior, Lexan, etc. in order to cover it.   Still thinking about whether to do the wings with it.  Their fabric, tapes and glue are so expen$ive...

EDMO

Edited 17 Jan 2016 by EDMO

[RobS 52]

Fred,

Thanks! The reason for my question is I read this paragraph on the Better Aircraft Fabric website and it had me wondering. Note the comment about unvarnished wood soaking up glue.

"When working with a wooden airframe, all surfaces should be painted or varnished (per aircraft designer’s recommendation) and then scuffed or lightly sanded. Failure to properly paint or varnish can cause problems. Because Oratex is so durable, an unprotected airframe could easily begin to deteriorate long before the fabric even begins to show wear. Also, unvarnished wood will soak up the glue, making multiple applications necessary. Failure to properly scuff the painted surface could result in inadequate adhesion. So, always paint or varnish, and always scuff the surface."

Edited 17 Jan 2016 by RobS

[FredStork 453]

Fred,

Thanks! The reason for my question is I read this paragraph on the Better Aircraft Fabric website and it had me wondering. Note the comment about unvarnished wood soaking up glue.

"When working with a wooden airframe, all surfaces should be painted or varnished (per aircraft designer’s recommendation) and then scuffed or lightly sanded. Failure to properly paint or varnish can cause problems. Because Oratex is so durable, an unprotected airframe could easily begin to deteriorate long before the fabric even begins to show wear. Also, unvarnished wood will soak up the glue, making multiple applications necessary. Failure to properly scuff the painted surface could result in inadequate adhesion. So, always paint or varnish, and always scuff the surface."

Well, that is exactly what you want; that the wood should should soak up the glue. The first application will saturate the wood and seal it, the second will make sure there is a sufficient amount of glue on the surface. When gluing to wood the real bond is creates inside the wood and not on the surface. The already partially glue impregnated plywood of the rib caps are not really sponges in terms of soaking up the glue... The remaining 3 sides of the rib cap should obviously be properly protected with varnish and the here critical surface will be protected by the hot melt glue and the fabric.

If you do this properly there is no need for rib stitching. But if you varnish the cap strips to prevent the hot melt to penetrate it, prematurely age the varnish by heating it (what is the best way to remove paint and varnish...?) and glue the fabric to the varnish you better double your rib stitching...

I did not rib stitch, there is no need for it with modern glue on 1 inch rib caps... not at the speed we fly our birds...

 

Edited 18 Jan 2016 by FredStork

[Geoffrey Thorpe 31]

Fred,  I noticed that your heat gun has what looks like a digital thermometer on the back of it, and your iron looks different than any I have seen.  I have both with manual settings, and an infrared thermometer to check the heat with.

Are these available in the U.S., or just in Europe?   What do they cost, and who sells them?  I know that your electricity is different there, or at least it was when I was in Germany about 55 years ago.

Thanks,  EDMO

From betteraircraftfabric.com

"Use of good high quality heat gun and iron is essential to properly activate the glue and to avoid overheating or burning the fabric. Never use a cheap, non-digital heat gun. You must have excellent temperature control. The same for irons. Only high quality heat tools are acceptable.

• Heat Gun - digital with adjustable, variable output, such as Steinel (available from BetterAircraftFabric)
• Iron - digital with good temperature stability across contact plate, such as Toko (available from BetterAircraftFabric)
• Digital infrared thermometer with dual lasers for aiming

The above tools are the most important. Successfully applying Oratex involves the controlled application of heat, and good tools are required. Be sure that your heat gun and iron are fully adjustable, predictable, and have accurate digital readouts. A good digital infrared thermometer is required to ensure that your tools are operating correctly."

 

You are likely aware that other fabric suppliers (such as poly-fiber) will go so far as to say that the STC is void if you use a heat gun. Of course, for an Avid /Kitfox the STC is irrelevant, but using the garden variety uncontrolled heat gun would seem like a really bad idea.

[FredStork 453]

My old "garden variety uncontrolled" heat gun would in position 1: not activate the glue and in position 2: melt the fabric... Nothing beats working with proper tools. 

And it is not the iron and heat gun that will alter the bottom line when placing the Oratex order and it is not worth the time chasing a cheaper supplier on the web, the difference will probably disappear in freight anyway. Both highly re-usable anyway for repair or other needs.

 

[RobS 52]

Thanks for the follow up Fred.