Avid speedwing.... Impressions from those that have flown one?

[William Davis 4]

Hi all I'm finishing the construction of a newly acquired avid model c speedwing and I've noticed on this website most say to either extend the wing or go with the HH or STOL wing. Curious why this is? I'm flying out of a 3500' grass runway out of Florida so stol is not needed. Would prefur speed over stol. For those that have flown the standard speedwing what are your thoughts?

Thanks

Bill

[EDMO 1078]

Bill,

I would like to hear from those who have flown both wings to get an accurate comparison.

I have never flown the Speedwing, but we flatland flyers don't need the VSTOL that the sandbar and pothole flyers need. A little speed gain is good for longer trips, but maybe cuts down on GW, and is a few mph faster on landings?

My buddy who owns the J3 keeps wanting to do something to slow down his stall speed - I keep telling him that he needs a drag chute to get any slower! It lands slower than the shortwing Pipers, but sure don't cruise as fast.

EDMO

Edited 28 Feb 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[Bandit 286]

If you see a Standard Avid for sale most of the time it is a speedwing or a Subaru powered Avid. I have flown a extended 582 powered Avid and have flown in a Subaru powered Fat Avid, those airplanes flew great. Never have flown a regular speedwing.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Most complain about how they land not how they takeoff or fly. Cruise performance is within 10 mph of the STOL wing with a much higher stall and approach speed. Just what I've read and heard no actual experience.

[High Country 69]

We built ours with an extended HH speedwing and love it. still very dirty (no fairings anywhere lots of gaps to fill still) and it performs well for its current configuration- empty weight 526 lbs rotax 582 w B box and ivo 68" 3 blade. I've only made it out once since the new prop so don't have to many real numbers yet but I can easily be on and off the ground in 500' solo I'm seeing 1000 fpm climb and 80-85 indicated with my wife and 20 gal of fuel we still climb out at 600 fpm and cruise at 75 indicated. once I get the leading edge cuffs, fairings, and gap seals on I will see even better. only have about 45 hrs TT so far but we are happy with it. Note all of these numbers are without flaps I still haven't played with them too much. I believe leni has flown both wings and has liked both. I'm sure he will share his experience. 

Edited 1 Mar 2015 by High Country

[Av8r3400 1178]

I have been told one of the largest issues with the short, speed wing is the lack of climb.

The one that was on my field, with two on board and a fresh 582, could barely manage 300 fpm on a cool day. (1300' field elevation)

[William Davis 4]

We built ours with an extended HH speedwing and love it. still very dirty (no fairings anywhere lots of gaps to fill still) and it performs well for its current configuration- empty weight 526 lbs rotax 582 w B box and ivo 68" 3 blade. I've only made it out once since the new prop so don't have to many real numbers yet but I can easily be on and off the ground in 500' solo I'm seeing 1000 fpm climb and 80-85 indicated with my wife and 20 gal of fuel we still climb out at 600 fpm and cruise at 75 indicated. once I get the leading edge cuffs, fairings, and gap seals on I will see even better. only have about 45 hrs TT so far but we are happy with it. Note all of these numbers are without flaps I still haven't played with them too much. I believe leni has flown both wings and has liked both. I'm sure he will share his experience.

Seems that would be the best of both wings and is what I would do if starting from scratch. My wings are built already and covered. Would love to hear first hand experience of the flying qualities of the standard speedwing.

Thanks

Bill

[William Davis 4]

I have been told one of the largest issues with the short, speed wing is the lack of climb.

The one that was on my field, with two on board and a fresh 582, could barely manage 300 fpm on a cool day. (1300' field elevation)

300' per minute climb seems rather dismal.

[William Davis 4]

Bill,I would like to hear from those who have flown both wings to get an accurate comparison.I have never flown the Speedwing, but we flatland flyers don't need the VSTOL that the sandbar and pothole flyers need. A little speed gain is good for longer trips, but maybe cuts down on GW, and is a few mph faster on landings?My buddy who owns the J3 keeps wanting to do something to slow down his stall speed - I keep telling him that he needs a drag chute to get any slower! It lands slower than the shortwing Pipers, but sure don't cruise as fast.EDMO

Ed I would be tickled to death if these speed wings land like a j3.

[William Davis 4]

Nobody has flown a standard speedwing? The specs are showing about a 10mph speed difference for both cruise and stall. Is this accurate? Showing a stall speed on the speedwing as only 42mph. Is this a bit optimistic?

Thanks

Bill

[EDMO 1078]

Bill,

The J3 stalls about 32 to 35 indicated. Some say with VGs they stall at 27?

Someone said that Leni AkFlyer has flown both - Donno if he is on the north slope, or just real busy - maybe you will get an answer from him someday.

Flying off of a 3500 runway at sealevel, I wouldn't worry about a slight increase in approach / stall speeds, but might have some thoughts about a lack of climb compared to the STOL wings. Weight also has a lot to do with all the above.

EDMO

Edited 3 Mar 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[William Davis 4]

Thanks for the reply Ed. I've heard numbers on the speedwing all over the chart. I just don't want to be touching down at 60mph in this type of plane.

Thanks

Bill

Edited 2 Mar 2015 by William Davis

[EDMO 1078]

Bill,

I've got some papers on doing aerobatics in the Aerobat - Donno if it has the same wing, and donno if these papers give any stall info along with how to do the maneuvers - I've only flown Kitfox, and a lot of certified birds. I don't think you will stall at more than 50 with the short wings, and maybe closer to 40, but again, weight is a factor. IMO, the best way is to take it up and get close to a stall, and go by whatever your ASI tells you, adding in some for varying conditions.

Heavy planes don't have as much variation in stall speeds with different weights as these light ones.

EDMO

Proper use of flaps might make a big difference in your speeds, climb rate?

Edited 3 Mar 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[dholly 718]

Hi Bill,

Looks like you're getting nowhere fast with this question, maybe I can help. One of the first Avid owners in my area that I spoke to when I was researching kit planes waaaay back when, was a model C Aerobat builder. I posted a copy of an article about her build you may want to read, as I believe it included her performance #'s (link below). Coincidentally, I think the plane was listed for sale recently in the classifieds here which may provide you with a means to contact the owner. Best regards.

Doug

http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/706-perseverance-avid-aerobat-builder-joanne-heckmann/?p=4021

[C5Engineer 1170]

Must be Joanne Heckmans Avid. She was a huge contributor to the Yahoo group and the Avid Comm letters. Wonder whatever happened to her Avid adventure.

[dholly 718]

Hi Joey, it definitely is Joanne's plane. I haven't talked to her in a few years now, last I recall she was having some medical issues that made flying uncomfortable for her.

[TJay 1041]

this guy here has the 24 foot aerobat wings performance is amazing I would not be one bit afraid of it.

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hard to tell how accurate his ASI is, but I tried to watch it on his take offs and landings.  Noticed on the one landing, he was showing about 50 when the plane touched.  Also, on the first takeoff, I counted 12 seconds before he left the ground.  Just looked at a video of my light Avid B, and it took about 8 seconds to get off the ground in that video.  Don't know what engine this guy is running, but I was running a 532 in the B and it weighed 445.  Jim Chuk

[dav8or 20]

Hard to tell how accurate his ASI is, but I tried to watch it on his take offs and landings.  Noticed on the one landing, he was showing about 50 when the plane touched.  Also, on the first takeoff, I counted 12 seconds before he left the ground.  Just looked at a video of my light Avid B, and it took about 8 seconds to get off the ground in that video.  Don't know what engine this guy is running, but I was running a 532 in the B and it weighed 445.  Jim Chuk

That is the Avid that I share a hangar with. It is a Model C Aerobat with a 582, c-box 3:1 with a 3 blade Warp Drive Prop. My Avid is the regular Speedwing with a 582 b-box 2.58:1 and a 2 blade GSC prop. We usually use around 500ft of runway taking off from grass and we could probably get it stopped in about the same distance. His cruise speed is a little better than mine but I am getting closer to matching him now. Cruise speed is around 100 mph IAS with a top speed of around 115 mph. We have both cross checked against GPS in 2 directions and our readings are pretty close to being correct. Touch down speed is around 50 mph after 65-70 on short final. My stall speed is 46 mph. Oh yeah and climb in mine with just me and 12 gallons or so of gas is roughly 1200-1400 fpm depending on outside temps.

 

If you have some tailwheel experience then landing a speedwing should not be much of an issue. We enjoy the higher cruise speeds and slightly more comfortable rough air handling.

 

Dan

[dav8or 20]

I just realized that the video above was from last November when he flew over my cruising group while we were on the other side of Galveston Bay a couple of miles up one of the bayous. My wife and I are on one of the boats that you see several minutes into the clip. It was definitely windy and bumpy that day.

 

Dan

[William Davis 4]

Bill,I've got some papers on doing aerobatics in the Aerobat - Donno if it has the same wing, and donno if these papers give any stall info along with how to do the maneuvers - I've only flown Kitfox, and a lot of certified birds. I don't think you will stall at more than 50 with the short wings, and maybe closer to 40, but again, weight is a factor. IMO, the best way is to take it up and get close to a stall, and go by whatever your ASI tells you, adding in some for varying conditions.Heavy planes don't have as much variation in stall speeds with different weights as these light ones.EDMOProper use of flaps might make a big difference in your speeds, climb rate?

Thanks Ed!

[William Davis 4]

Hi Bill,

Looks like you're getting nowhere fast with this question, maybe I can help. One of the first Avid owners in my area that I spoke to when I was researching kit planes waaaay back when, was a model C Aerobat builder. I posted a copy of an article about her build you may want to read, as I believe it included her performance #'s (link below). Coincidentally, I think the plane was listed for sale recently in the classifieds here which may provide you with a means to contact the owner. Best regards.

Doug

http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/706-perseverance-avid-aerobat-builder-joanne-heckmann/?p=4021

Thanks Doug that was very helpful.

[William Davis 4]

this guy here has the 24 foot aerobat wings performance is amazing I would not be one bit afraid of it.

  

Thanks TJay that video was perfect! Looks like touchdown near 50mph which is right where I was hoping.

That is the Avid that I share a hangar with. It is a Model C Aerobat with a 582, c-box 3:1 with a 3 blade Warp Drive Prop. My Avid is the regular Speedwing with a 582 b-box 2.58:1 and a 2 blade GSC prop. We usually use around 500ft of runway taking off from grass and we could probably get it stopped in about the same distance. His cruise speed is a little better than mine but I am getting closer to matching him now. Cruise speed is around 100 mph IAS with a top speed of around 115 mph. We have both cross checked against GPS in 2 directions and our readings are pretty close to being correct. Touch down speed is around 50 mph after 65-70 on short final. My stall speed is 46 mph. Oh yeah and climb in mine with just me and 12 gallons or so of gas is roughly 1200-1400 fpm depending on outside temps.

 

If you have some tailwheel experience then landing a speedwing should not be much of an issue. We enjoy the higher cruise speeds and slightly more comfortable rough air handling.

 

Dan

Hi Dan that is the information I needed! Thanks for the reply. Curious what you've done to your plane for speed improvements to you plane?

Thanks

Bill

[JustNorm 14]

Hi I have been on holidays and away from the site for a bit so sorry to be late with some info.  That video is Ralph in his Avid.  He is running a 582 with a 3-1 gearbox and a three blade Warp Drive prop.  He gets some great performance from the plane but he flys at sea level so it may make a difference if you are not at sea level. I flew my speed wing at 3500 msl and did not see that kind of performance.  I was lucky to see 95mph.  I believe that my plane suffered from the higher altitude.  I was running a 582 with a 2.58-1 B-box and a two blade IVO.  My climb was good showing 800 to 900 fpm solo.  I never took a passenger with me because I did not trust the plane.  My landing and takeoff was in the 55 to 60mph range and the glide was that of a rock.  It dropped at 1000fpm and I had a motor out at 300 feet so I had 20secs to arrive at the seen of the accident.  I repaired the plane and sold it shortly after.  The guy that bought it was a former air force jet pilot and just loved it.  My thought is that with the extensions the plane would not have to work as hard to stay aloft and I do not think the speed would suffer.  (my thoughts not fact) This is a video of me landing and take off.  I land at 55 to 60mph and it is done flying. 

The plane was also a handful to takeoff and before I bought it, the previous owner ground looped.  My test pilot, a man with thousands of hours in kitfoxs and some in Avids ground looped before the first flight.  I never ground looped it but did have it get away from me on a couple of landings.  I went back to my Buzzard and love it but I am working on rebuilding a Model IV KitFox.  I really enjoyed the way the Avid was a two finger flyer and hope to get back to that in the KitFox. 

Good Luck but I think the extensions would be a good addition. 

[dav8or 20]

It is true that we are at sea level for take off and initial climb. Our cruise numbers are typically between 2500 and 5000 ft MSL and is still around 100 mph at 5900-6000 rpm. I currently have the 582 with B-box and 2.58:1 but am using a GSC ground adjustable prop. You didn't mention what diameter your prop was. Mine currently is 68". I had the 64" blades previously on my 532 and saw my fastest numbers with the smaller diameter. As soon as I get my engine running better and a few hours on it I plan to put the 64" blades back in and see how much difference they make on the same engine, same day.

 

I am surprised that you had trouble with take off. Mine seems really easy to keep straight on the take off roll. I wonder if the toe in/out on the mains might be different?

 

Dan