Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Close Call groundloop

25 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hey guys,

 

I was out flying this morning, no wind, very nice morning. Came in to Longmont Colorado (Vance Brand airport) which is the next airport north (10 min flight time) of my home field at Boulder. I've flown in there a lot in my weight shift trike over the past 14 years. It's notoriously busy on weekend mornings especially when the sky diving operation is in full swing. But this morning I'm in my Kitfox and just solo'd 8 hours ago. Noobie green taildragger pilot.

 

As I entered on a 45 to the downwind for 29 at pattern altitude. I heard the jump plane give a warning of skydivers and to please not overfly mid field. I'm in good position, right where I should be and called my midfield left downwind for 29. Get to the beam of the 29 numbers and pull flaps to 3/4 where I like them and settle the plane in to a 60mph decent as make a nice turn on base and shortly thereafter final. As I turn final I hear the jump plane call base circle to final. This is a twin Otter that's now right up my butt. These guys are impatient and want to get another load of divers in. It hasn't been 3 minutes since they dropped a load out at 10k and now they are on base hauling butt right at me. My brain is concerned that they don't see me in my little Kitfox and are going to be on top of me. So I call on the radio "kitfox is 50 feet above the 29 numbers landing". Of course this is where I should be focusing on keeping the plane straight and my feet nimble on the rudder. Well, I admit, I was very distracted and only 8 hours past solo and am not as good with my feet as I want to be. So when I flared out I had the nose pointed to the left about 10 degrees. Tires squawking and screeching but I pulled back on the stick and planted the tail and wasn't as fast jabbing right rudder as I needed to. Fortunately there is a wide grass skirt  between the runway and taxiway. So when I got her under "control" the loop stopped, I didn't want to over control to keep it on the concrete so I just ran off in to the grass. I taxi forward to the taxiway and call that I was clear of the runway just as the Otter touched down right there where I went off the runway not 20 seconds earlier.

 

Now, I know, fly the plane and always fly the plane but I was scared of being crushed by that Otter and also being a green taildragger pilot I wasn't as fast on the controls. Not sure what to do here. I can't be mad at the Otter driver that I almost ground looped but I've had this same thing happen before in my weight shift trike that's much slower. They are always up my butt. They fly aggressively and act like they own the airport and have priority. So after I checked the plane over and taxied over to the FBO for some non ethanol mogas I taxied back out with calmer nerves. The Otter was on the opposite side of the runway on the hold short, three planes on my side of the runway, I was last #4 waiting in line. The Otter jumps out in front of this plane that had just turned a fairly short final and screamed off. The Cessna 182 on my side of the runway said something like "ok you have the runway Otter but it was my turn" The plane on final I could tell was effected by wake turbulence because there wasn't even 30 seconds between the Otter taking off and them landing. They should have gone around considering how much they waffled up and down. I'm sitting there watching this and was getting kindof pissed because they had caused two pilots to be placed in to a situation that wasn't necessary.

 

Telling my wife about this she said I should call the airport manager and tell him what had happened. I don't want to be one of those people that complains but I'm thinking about it because this has happened to me flying my weight shift trike and my trike buddies at Longmont before. Even my CFI that trained me in the Kitfox didn't like to fly to Longmont because of the Otter jump plane reputation as being a pattern "hog".

 

Tomorrow morning I'm going out to a buddies big grass freshly mowed air field and doing about 40 takeoff's and landings to get the sight picture burned even more in to my brain and get better with the pedals. That's what I'm supposed to be doing in this solo - pre checkride period. Get to the point where I put the plane on like a pair of pants. Definitely not quite there yet.

 

I would say that I won't go back to Longmont when the jump planes are running, except Longmont is the only airport with non-ethanol mogas and I want to run that much more than 100LL. The time I need to fill up is typically on my way back from flying in the morning and by then the jump planes are running. 

 

What do you guys think? Should I call the airport manager or the dive operation or just let it go. I'm still kinda shook up from the almost ground looping of my bird.

Edited by rdooley79

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Having dropped jumpers out of a Porter and 182 I can attest to the "asshole factor" often on display when you're spending many bucks a minute and hot-loading the plane to get more jumps done. That doesn't warrant taking the right of way or pushing people, though. Not in any way, shape or form. Unless you are military or Lifeflight with a dying body inside, you'll obey the same rules as anyone else.

 

What happened to you is not a shame for you, its a shame for whoever allows those monkeys to run the show the way they do. I'd approach the FBO and if no corrective action is taken immediately and noticeably I'd not hesitate one second to call the FSDO. I have filed formal complaints, even though one of them became a subject only after "Mr. I'mbetterthananyoneandinahurry" had destroyed our Porter. The world needs idiots, otherwise it will go sane on us.

 

You fly the slower plane and you follow published procedure and you fly that plane ANY DAMN WAY you see fit, to keep it safe. You keep your plane and yourself safe and sound, Guess what... too freaking bad for the meatbomber. I'd not argue a single minute with any of the clowns who think they can rush people or take the right of way. Let an inspector deal with it.

 

Lesson learned (I hope): If you groundloop and crash your plane due to feeling rushed, it's your loss. You are PIC.

If the conditions are dangerous enough where a ground-loop becomes the preferred choice over having a midair with someone dumb - its time for the Artillery.

 

No Mercy. Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Hey I agree with you and had the same feelings but wasn't sure if it was just my nerves taking that perspective. I am still getting used to the rudder in a split second moment scenario. When things are all "normal" I'm o.k. but still at 8 hours from solo am still very green. I totally admit that. I'd like to think that If I were further along I wouldn't have had to unexpectedly depart the runway. All in all everything is o.k. No damage to anything other than my nerves. It was a good wake up for me to keep on top of my little taildragger. As sweet as she is she can bite back when not treated right. 

 

My wife is in much more verbal agreement with you and is yelling "That's Right" in the kitchen as I read your reply to her. She even went on to say that when I have taken her up in the weight shift trike, she doesn't like going to Longmont because of the jump planes always up our butt. Come to think of it now, it's a fairly common scenario. No wonder they have so many complaints from the neighbors. 

 

I'll be calling the airport manager and the FBO both.

 

I still need to go do a ton more takeoffs and landings to get my feet more firmly beneath me so when the $#!t hits the fan, I'll make better snap decisions controlling my plane better. I am that way with my trike now, with over 1200 hours and 14 years at the controls. It's an odd thing being experienced and yet a noobie at the same time. 

 

As always, I want to be safe and be one of those "Old Pilots" with many stories to tell. Just got another one unfortunately. 

Edited by rdooley79

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

One thing I know for sure is if you get distracted by something besides flying the plane when on final, you are very likely to make a lousy landing. Sometimes it's better to go around and have another shot at it where you can focus on the landing. Once in a while on my private home field I will have a deer run across in front of me when I'm on final or something like that. Obviously distracting, do I go around? not usually, but the landing usually shows the loss of concentration and would have been better if I did go around. One day it might bite me as well. I've flown into that field well over 1500 times. Jim Chuk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hey I agree with you and had the same feelings but wasn't sure if it was just my nerves taking that perspective. I am still getting used to the rudder in a split second moment scenario. When things are all "normal" I'm o.k. but still at 8 hours from solo am still very green. I totally admit that. I'd like to think that If I were further along I wouldn't have had to unexpectedly depart the runway. All in all everything is o.k. No damage to anything other than my nerves. It was a good wake up for me to keep on top of my little taildragger. As sweet as she is she can bite back when not treated right. 

 

My wife is in much more verbal agreement with you and is yelling "That's Right" in the kitchen as I read your reply to her. She even went on to say that when I have taken her up in the weight shift trike, she doesn't like going to Longmont because of the jump planes always up our butt. Come to think of it now, it's a fairly common scenario. No wonder they have so many complaints from the neighbors. 

 

I'll be calling the airport manager and the FBO both.

 

I still need to go do a ton more takeoffs and landings to get my feet more firmly beneath me so when the $#!t hits the fan, I'll make better snap decisions controlling my plane better. I am that way with my trike now, with over 1200 hours and 14 years at the controls. It's an odd thing being experienced and yet a noobie at the same time. 

 

As always, I want to be safe and be one of those "Old Pilots" with many stories to tell. Just got another one unfortunately. 

 

8 hours from solo in a new to you plane, you are completely within your rights to get nervous when you are feeling rushed. The only way to counter that is to discontinue the approach early and try again with different settings. Change the third E as in Environment. Its exactly this kind of stuff that can kill you in a hurry and it leaves people behind who wonder what for. Unless the airport exists solely for jumpers and their planes, avoiding the airport is simply the same as accepting the new, self-declared Kings. I am not saying they don't have a right to be there and rig the game in their favor when possible, but never at the expense of others. That includes local residents, but also other airplanes. The FAA may be well aware of the issues. Sometimes a solid DING can fix stupid.

 

Good on you for talking about it and good on you for acknowledging that even the smallest flying contraption you could fly, can probably just barely kill you.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

JJ gives great advice, not much I can add other than fly the plane first, the jump planes can wait.  The other option is to land on the grass next to the runway anyways.  I land gravel or grass EVERY time I can as the big tires are just not forgiving on pavement.  The other thing is to make sure your bakes are up to snuff.  If you can't hold a full power run up, then there are a few things you can do to make them better.  At certain times, the brakes are the only thing you have to keep the plane straight or to hold it from ground looping.  A few bucks spent on the brake system is a whole lot cheaper than replacing gear and wings when you do a nasty ground loop.

 

Just like bobcat drivers, there are two kinds of tailwheel pilots.. those who have ground looped and those who will ground loop, at some point its going to happen, but having the odds stacked in your favor is never a bad thing! 

 

Glad this didn't turn out worse.

 

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I am still taking tailwheel lessons and only have 100 hrs in gyros so I am in no way shape or form what I consider an experienced pilot. That said, as was stated earlier. If you are feeling that rushed do a go around. I know it is not the first thing to come to mind, but it should be. Just pick up the pattern again in the crosswind section

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Sometimes close calls are a good thing. The only time I've gone clear around with mine I was on my 4th landing of a difficult mountain strip. Complacency kills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'll post my longer response to this, hoping that long responses aren't frowned upon? I suck at writing one-liners.

Kind of like two examples of my own Close Calls & Dumb Stunts, just to give an idea that flight time or "experience" is of no meaning.

I had written it last night, but wasn't sure if I wanted to post it...

 

Once upon a time.... (when rubber boots were still made of wood, but less than 42.6 years ago, which is when a pilot really becomes experienced), I declined a drop due to heavy TS activity in the vicinity of the airport. But, the tandems had been sold, giving refunds was not an option. So, the smartest of all men, the DZ owner, parked his bum in the Porter and decided to take the risk. 20 minutes later he was back in the pattern, plane full of jumpers (all the TM's had declined the jump). In beginning rain and heavy turbulence he came landing into our heavily sloped airport (2000 feet RWY). Not only was he slow, he was also carrying lots of weight. He had actually never landed the Porter at MaxGW... What had to happen, happened. The plane was trash. 2 people escaped with light injuries, 1+ MM of airplane was written off and guess everyone got a refund and then some. Two other drop pilots quit that day - some pressure is usual, standing up 3 pilots to prove that you can crash a plane all by your lonesome deserves punishment. The guy later killed himself doing crazy stunts on the chute. Saying "NO" takes less than two seconds. Being dead takes the rest of your life. Call me a chicken if you want, but please give me credit for being one that is still laying eggs...
 

Yeeeears later, I find my own bum in a Twin Cessna approaching our home airport on a deadhead corporate flight. Two pilots, empty plane, my leg. Heavy TS activity in the area, with the Radar painting a bleak picture for our intended place of arrival. An unfortunate decision to descent from the FL's early placed us in heavy turbulence, ice and getting tired of it, quickly. The guy to my left finally got sick and used a sick bag. Getting out of the soup high enough to see the airport, it was clear that we would race the storm. At the time we were both "committed" not to keep flying. The last 5 miles were pure terror. Turbulence so bad that I really worried about the planes well-being. Sounds I had never heard before from that plane. Wing flex on a little twin is somewhat limited, but hell, those wing-lets were in motion and things where being smacked around in the plane. I have never paid that much attention to my shoulder harness and seat-belts before, nor did I ever after. This time I pulled the belts tight enough to hurt.
 

The following landing was a constant struggle with the plane from a mile out until we sat on the runway. 3000+ takeoffs and landings and never once worked that hard. By the time we got stopped, the storm was right on top of the airport. Unable to taxi safely. Lightning so bright it was impressive. Rain and sleet, too. Gusts that moved the airplane just like a toy. After it had calmed a little, we decided to taxi back to our hangar. I had been pushing my luck. For nothing. A chunk of ice fell off the plane when we pushed her inside the hangar. I thought: "Can you spell DUMBASS?"
 

We later talked about the flight and approach. The first option to dodge the issue would have been to stay high and above the worst longer, thereby reducing our time in icy IMC and turbulence. This would have given us time to evaluate and judge the weather and would have reduced our exposure to the ice. Chances are, this was our first exit door, we elected not to open. When we later discovered that it would be close with the storm, we had the chance to divert. We didn't. Second strike. The third strike was accepting the guy on the left seat basically becoming severely sick and more or less useless as a crew member. For me that was the last warning to divert and get out of the crap. I didn't because the idea of having this kind of turbulence on the plane didn't appeal to me, at all. Getdownitis, got the better of me. I was more afraid of a inflight breakup, than I was about bending the airplane on a shitty landing.
 

There's many highly experienced pilots on this discussion board and my lousy TT doesn't stink up against theirs. Like the saying: There's those who have ground-looped and those who still have to". You usually get two out of three strikes for free and without the NTSB showing up. When you collect all three and still walk - you were lucky. The time we have really plays no role in how any particular flight turns out. There you are writing safety articles for pilots and a minute later you're the DUMBEST DONKEY on the farm. 3000+ takeoffs and landings, and the only one that really matters is this very next one.

 

So, we take the beatings until morale improves, we aim to do better next time and not let others (or ourselves) rush us.

Naturally, the number of go-arounds decrease as we gain more experience - or get complacent - but that doesn't mean crap about our skill. The only thing you can really learn, is to say NO earlier, which many of us don't do until we are reminded of just how quickly we can fudge up.

 

One check-mark in the "Close Call" column of our logbook is always a good reason to put one in the "Opportunities To Learn" column, too. We should appreciate opportunities when they present themselves. Talking about them isn't nearly as bad as the press coverage will be after the smoking pile of wreckage comes to a stop.

 

Thanks for reading. ;)

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'll take the other side and play devils advocate. Twotter pilot is decending from jump altitude as fast as possible making calls, working hard to make the boss money. You are out flying for fun, possibly on an extended final at very low speed taking longer than necessary to land.  I always give the right away to larger, more fuel hungry aircraft when I can. If I was entering the pattern and heard the jumpers away call, I would know that I have 3 minutes to be on the ground and out of their way. If i I feel that I can't get on the ground with out holding them up I will communicate with the jump plane and ask them if they would like me to do another circut and let them land first. Many times they thank me and land before me and some times they tell me to go ahead and land ,they will give me some space. 

  I know there are some jerk pilots out there , but most will work with you if you communicate. 

 

 Many times pilots will be next in line to take the active and sit there for a while fiddeling with radios, gps, or what ever they  do, when you are next in line and you are wasting everyones time, it is very irritating. in a  twin Otter full of jumpers on a hot day is not a fun place to be waiting for somebody who is wasting everyones time. 

 

  Sometime pilots get on a power trip when it's their turn on the runway, they push other peoples buttons because they are a jerk or have a grudge against a certain type of flying. A little communication goes a long way. We should all work together to make the pattern work for all of us. Giving right away to a hard working guy flying jumpers , when we are just out flying for fun, can be one way to improve the pattern moral.

 

 I am a skydiver, I use to travel to many drop zones in my plane to go to different events. I have never had any issues with jump planes in the pattern. I listen to their calls and fit in when I can, almost always talking to the jump plane to work with them.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Taking this thread from Groundloops to Skydiving - I have done a lot of crazy things in my life, but jumping out of a perfectly good airplane will never be one of them.

I was scheduled for a night courier flight in a L-19 Birddog in Germany, but had conflicting schedules, so another guy took my place for the flight.  The L-19 caught fire in the middle of the flight, and both crewmembers jumped.  One stated that he heard the other screaming past him as the other's chute didn't open.  They found the other one's body 2 days later.

I have wondered for the past 50+ years - Which one had MY chute?

EdMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

EdMO, I guess the guy with the backpack strapped to his back was wondering the same thing...

 

"What kind of idiot is hiking around down there with my chute? Oh dang! Nice! A ham sandwich and a Capri Sun!!!"

 

My intention wasn't to derail the thread by sharing another two stories on "Close Calls".

Neither was my goal to generalize any critique against our nice, caring and professional parachuting friends.

 

Never ground-looped a plane myself (yet).

 

I guess guys flying C5 Galaxys, Globemasters and KC135's have enough tact and class to push TOGA when there is a slower plane in the way. Of course their mission isn't nearly as important as it is to get on the ground before the jumpers arrive.

 

:nutkick:  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I didn't mean to derail the thread either - just had to share my anxiety about jumping that I have had for 2/3 of my life.

Hoping to end my "near-groundlooping" days by putting the training wheel on the nose - but shit still happens!

     I always wondered why they put most of the runways North to South, when our prevailing winds come from the West, making cross-wind landings almost mandatory, until I was landing, turning on final to the West, and the setting sun totally wiped out my view of the strip which was in the shadows of a hill.

EdMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I see both sides of the fence, but if I'm on short final I'm landing... to play devils advocate, let's say I went around and gave way to twatter. Deer runs out in front of the twatter and he goes around. Not only is he trying to get the plane configured etc, but now he is 10 seconds from ramming a twatter up my ass and he is frantically looking for my little avid trying to see and avoid. Setting yourself up for a midair doesn't sound like much fun to me. The twatter can enter the pattern and fly like a normal human being. I land in the same pattern as the 135 guys all day long, they get to wait for me and the other cubs and planes ahead of them in the pattern as well. Just because they are on a revenue run does not give them an irrevocable right to fly like a jackass. If profit margins are that tight, maybe they should look for a different business to be in.

All that said, I would still love to jump and get the rush one day soon!

:BC:

Ps, yes jj I read all of your post too :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You should fly out of a airport that spray planes are working out of. They put jump planes to shame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Lol Bandit I was thinking the same thing when I was reading this. As much as I would love to get into a spray plane I hope I never  turn into one of those runway hogs. Here we got one landing on 36 then 5 seconds later one comes in on 18 all day long over and over with no radio contact ha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Yup!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The last time I was at my old hometown I had just gotten into my plane to get ready to take off - My Cousin, a duster, was going down the taxiway doing his warmup - He didn't bother with the runway - just took off from the taxi strip - no radio!

EdMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Talk about having to keep a eye on other airplanes. 4 to 5 spray planes working out of our airport now. Tonight one ag plane was taking off, he finally got airborne about 3/4 of the way down the runway when another spray plane was on short final heading right toward the plane taking off. The plane on short final just landed over the one taking off. This goes on all day. You just have to keep a sharp eye on things during this time.

post-56-0-65280600-1438741607_thumb.jpg

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Good Photo Bandit - One little Avid surrounded by mob of Avid-eating Turboprops - Looks like Custer's Last Stand!

EDMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ag pilots are a completely different class of pilot. Watch them work at night or in extremely confined areas.

Talk about crazy stuff, still done safely compared to your average timebuilder meatbomber.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V96NHi-J2Ao

 

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

JJ - One scary Video !!!

I don't know the system that shows the 3 red lights in the center of the video - any answers on that?  Just IP lights?

I cant even find a comment to the night dusting, and I grew up flying with the WW2 pilots in the Stearmans  and Snows - and went to a couple of funerals for them - But they never flew at night.  I don't remember any lights on them.

Too much danger there for me to even think about!

EdMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Flying for hire in perilous conditions = $$$$$

Funerals can be inexpensive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

One good thing about all of the spraying in our area is there isn't a bug that is left alive within 200 miles of us. We can actually enjoy the outdoors now. The bats are a little thin though.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

We have showings of the West Nile virus in our Mosquitos - Been an above-normal constant rain all summer -

County only has 2 sprayers mounted on pickups and one of them is broke - wearing long-sleeved shirts all year is normal for me -  Wish we had some dusters here - Tell your starving bats to come south - Ours are getting too fat to fly!

EdMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0