New guy worried about initial investment


13 posts in this topic

Posted

Hello,

 

I am new to this forum and hope some of you can shed some light on my concerns. For several months I have been following ads mostly on Barnstomers. Originally I was looking for a Sonex but decided it was just too small for me. I became very interested in the Avid Flyer and the KitFox. After monitoring Barnstomers ads for these 3 different planes I noticed that almost all the ads expire without a sale. Even the ads that say motivated seller or price reduced make me an offer do not seem successful overall. I know each seller has their own and varied expectations for what they are willing to settle for but I see very little success in sales overall. If I am going to invest a sizable amount of money I would like to think that at a later date I will be able to recoup some of my investment. Is it just a bad economy or has it always been this way? I wish there was a way to go back and look at the expired ads on Barnstomers  and have the opportunity to contact the owners who may have given up trying to sell their planes. I am a serious buyer and not a tire kicker and hope some of you can offer me some advice.

Thanks

Ken C.

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Posted (edited)

I think it is partly the bad economy, gas prices got high, and people are looking for bargains.   If the rules change on the medicals, the price of 2 and 4 place factory planes is going to go up. 

   The prices on our kit-planes vary from sky-high to give-away, you just have to be on top of the hunt and find the bargains.   Other than that, it is condition, history and engine that determine prices.

    I have a friend who gave $50,000 for a Kitfox 5, and another friend who got an Avid for just a few hundred, and one guy in California was giving one away.

   A finished plane with low-time engine is surely going to sell higher than an uncompleted project. 

Your profit, if any, comes from the work you put into it.  Most of us are not in it for profit, but for the freedom and enjoyment, along with avoiding the high cost of factory parts, maintenance and STCs.

The more experienced guys on this site are always watching for bargains, and they usually share their finds with others on here who are looking for a plane, usually in our "For Sale" section.

Hope this helps - Maybe someone else can give better advice than me.

 Welcome Ken,  keep posting and reading.

EdMo

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Ken the issue with Experimentals is that people like yourself who are specifically looking for an Avid or Kitfox are few and far between. The other issue is most of them out there are early models with two strokes that have sat around for years which to someone just getting into them as not as desirable as the later models with 4 stroke power. That being said those models often fetch double the price. Another thing is unless your Nlappos most people are not willing to travel great distances to pick these birds up which narrows down prospective buyers even more. An experimental plane should never be purchased as an investment. It's kind of like building up a classic car. Most are one of kind and if you like to tinker and upgrade them you will never get back out of it what you have into it.I have more than double what I initially paid for my plane into upgrades. If you really want to purchase one that will hold some value, hold out for a nice Kitfox 4 with a 912 engine. No idea what your mission is but if you are planning to stay fairly close to home and just want to fly you cannot beat the fun factor of a light early 2-Stroke Powered Avid or Kitfox. There are days when I wish I had more speed and horsepower but having the ability to drop into 300 foot cow pasture or a jeep trail on a mountainside anytime I feel like it is far more fun....for me but that's my mission 90% of the time. With that said Herman Pahls Model 2 in Oregon is a very capable little bird...(shameless plug for Hpahls)

 

Welcome to the Forum! Hope you find a great bird. There are more on the market currently than I have seen in a very long time.

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Posted

Ken,

I purchased a 1959 C172A back in 2007 for $25k and dumped a fair amount of money in it improving the panel and replacing tired and worn parts. When I went to sell it 7 years later I thought I'd at least get my $25k back, but didn't. I think what EdMo said about the economy and price of fuel is spot on and played a large part in the price I got for my plane.

 

Since then, and after shopping Barnstormers, Ebay and all of the other sites, I purchased a partially completed Avid kit and look forward to dumping time (and money) into it to get it flying. I have no expectation that if I decide to sell it I will get all of my money back. For me it's a hobby and hobbies cost - at least in the experimental aircraft world, flying will cost me a liitle less (I hope).

 

Good luck searching and keep posting . . .

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Posted (edited)

Looks like a nice 2008 Capella on ebay now for $24,500, with 99 watchers - but you have to read about it - I didn't see what engine.

When the Cessna 150 came out, it was about $8000 new, and the 172 was $10,000, and look at the prices now -

Of course, back then you could buy a new car for under $3000, or a house for $10,000 and look at prices now.

And I made 11 cents an hour starting pay in the Army, and $1.83 an hour at McDonnell Aircraft when I got out....

Time brings Changes!

EdMo

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted (edited)

Ken,

I spent all of last summer looking for a Kitfox or Avid. As the summer progressed, I noticed that, overall, the prices seemed to be decreasing. I ended up buying mine in October. It is a Kitfox II with a 582 gray head and about 253 hours. A open transport trailer was also included

 

Lou

Edited by KFfan

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Posted

I've been watching for sale adds for years, and have bought a few Avids and Kitfoxes along the way. Plane prices have been coming down for a while it seems. Mostly I look at light sport eligible planes. For instance, a few years ago, you couldn't find a Champ on barnstormers for under 25,000, now I see them fairly frequently for 20,000 or a bit less. I think the economy and fuel prices have a lot to do with it as well. Maybe people skipping their medicals and dropping down to sport pilot drove up the 2 seater prices, and now with the talk about soon not needing a medical with a regular private pilot's license is also helping to now drive the 2 seater prices back down. I do know this, if you are patient, have the cash in hand and are ready to go get it right away, great deals can be found. You will have to beat the other guy who is also in that same situation though as the great deals don't last for long. Jim Chuk

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Posted

Another perspective. I bought my first Avid, a MKIV with 582 for $16,000.00. It was a wonderful little plane. I flew it all over the place, modified it, flew it all over the place, modified it flew it all over the place and learned a TON....AND had a ton of fun doing it! It had 150 hours on it when I bought it and had 1400 on it when I sold it. I sold it for  it for $15,500.00 with a nearly fresh engine rebuild. I loved that plane and feel that I did real well overall.  However, the price I sold it for in NO WAY meant that I got my money out! I sunk a lot of money (and more time than money) into my modifications and ongoing maintenance. So it still cost me a LOT to "own" the plane.

 

If this is going to be your first plane (don't know if it is) I think you will find like others have said the real money is in preventive maintenance, fixing things (hopefully before they break) :-), hangar rent, insurance, fuel and oil costs, keeping your medical, and a million other things I probably forgot.

 

If you buy a reasonable plane and are halfway smart (or lucky) and don't get burned, and you keep it in good shape the whole time you own it, you may not recoup your original investment, but you won't get burned either. So if it goes down like I just described, you will have a TON more money in the long list of operating expenses than you will the price difference between what you pay and what you sell it for.

 

Wow. I don't know if that is much of a sales pitch for buying a plane! :-)

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Posted

let me summarize what I was trying to say above. PLANES ARE NOT AN "INVESTMENT".  

 

I wrecked my second Avid in a bad landing. That is always a possibility even tho no one likes to think about it, but it is a very real possibility. I think you have to go into buying a plane realizing there is a possibility you might get virtually nothing back out of it, or that it might cost a LOT to fix it if you break it. If losing virtually everything you have in a plane is not an acceptable possibility buying one isn't something you should do.

 

One other thing. I don't think Avids or kitfoxes (unless you get a late model kitfox) have any more room (pilot comfort-wise) than a Sonnex. Just making sure you understand that. I've flown in both.

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Posted

Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts with me. You have given me a different perspective to think about. It's really not worth worrying about what the plane will be worth down the road but finding something I like and enjoy flying it for many years to come. Thanks again for taking the time to respond and thanks for welcoming me to the group.

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Posted (edited)

Ken,

     I hope you have realized that this great group does not discriminate - If you get a different plane, we would love to hear about it, and we LOVE photos - so stay tuned.

Good Flying,

EdMO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted

Ken,

I couldn't agree more with Chris...Aircraft are not good investments

It is just like a boat.

So, when you look for your plane, do some research to figure out the going price for what you are looking at, buy one, upgrade it to fit your needs, fly the wings off of it and if you get some money in your pocket when you are done with it, you are doing good!

I would suggest saving the money to buy it beforehand so you can just pay cash. Loans on airplanes is a crappy way to go, nothing worse than making payments on something you aren't flying enough or that you can't afford the maintenance on. It will turn something fun into a burden!

Think about the cost of fuel, cost of a hangar, cost of insurance, cost of annual inspection, cost of other maintenance and budget for worst case on all of that. This way you are at peace with the money this hobby will bleed out of you and you can enjoy flying rather than going further into debt every flight!

I just sold a plane for $2K less than I bought it for 8 years ago...sounds good right? Well, I put about $10K and 3 years of work into it that I knew I would never get back. However, I would do it again in a heartbeat...that $10K upgraded the plane to my needs and taught me all kinds of things about restoring aircraft and it made it fun to fly! It gave me pride in my airplane, made it mine...

So long story longer, pay what you can afford to lose and any positive outcome in the end will be an added bonus to your flying adventures.

Good Luck,

Ron

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Posted

Hi again Ken,

 

One other thing. Whatever plane you decide on, my personal opinion is to go with a proven model with many flying examples, a good support group and if possible the company still in business. Rans, Kitfox, Sonnex, Just, Vans, Zenith are a few that come to mind that you cannot really go wrong with assuming one type will fit your mission. I would stay away from exotic onezee twozee  airplane models and engine configurations regardless of how awesome they may appear.

 

Even our Avids can be problematic because there is no manufacturer still in business. The reason we can do so well with the Avids is that so many kits were sold there are a lot of planes flying with a known successful history and this support group is the best anyone can hope for.

 

Anyway best of luck and like Ron said we are interested in following your search process and providing support whatever you end up doing!

 

Chris

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