Amphibian project resurrection & modifications

141 posts in this topic

Posted

Luke,  butting in on your conversation with Leni - If you are going to use the old Avid (2216?) glue, then get the instructions - they are a little different than the ones for 9460 about preparing the aluminum spars for glueing - I think.  I might have them in an old Kitfox 1 manual?

EDMO

Hi Ed:

Not butting in at all. I'm not sure what I'm going to use I have been researching what's the best of currently avable adhesive's. The prep doesn't look too bad on the wings so I'm thinking the orginal adhisives used were not mixed right or simply failed after years of not being stored or handled properly.

I would imagine there must have been a reason for Kitfox to change from 2216 to 9460?

EDMO

The evaluation of the desgine and meterals avable - affordable to work with would be my guess.  On first sight of the wings condtion after removing the cover I was pretty bummed out compleatly reworking them wasn't part of the plan. Then I started reading up on wing builds on the site and started to get excited about being able to incorporate the improvements of 20 plus years of evaluation and practical engineering.  I'll research kitfox's adhisives to see what there doing and why if I find any good info I'll share it here. Thanks Ed

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Posted

Luke,  butting in on your conversation with Leni - If you are going to use the old Avid (2216?) glue, then get the instructions - they are a little different than the ones for 9460 about preparing the aluminum spars for glueing - I think.  I might have them in an old Kitfox 1 manual?

EDMO

Hi Ed:

Not butting in at all. I'm not sure what I'm going to use I have been researching what's the best of currently avable adhesive's. The prep doesn't look too bad on the wings so I'm thinking the orginal adhisives used were not mixed right or simply failed after years of not being stored or handled properly.

I would imagine there must have been a reason for Kitfox to change from 2216 to 9460?

EDMO

The evaluation of the desgine and meterals avable - affordable to work with would be my guess.  On first sight of the wings condtion after removing the cover I was pretty bummed out compleatly reworking them wasn't part of the plan. Then I started reading up on wing builds on the site and started to get excited about being able to incorporate the improvements of 20 plus years of evaluation and practical engineering.  I'll research kitfox's adhisives to see what there doing and why if I find any good info I'll share it here. Thanks Ed

BTW:  I agree with Leni about changing the twist to only 1/2 inch.   How long are those wing spars?  Same as Magnum?

EDMO

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Posted

I know that the one I have now had the updates sponsons on it and did not use the wing tip incorporated floats.  The ones mine came with were the Avid fiberglass ones and the full lotus are MUCH lighter.    I am not too crazy about having that drooped tip hanging so far down.  I think if you were to catch a strut mounted sponson during ground operations the damage would be less than the tip sponson eating the ground.  Just my thoughts on it, I don't know if the thoughts hold any water or not.... no pun intended.

 

:BC:

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Posted

...and with the narrow track of the Avid Amphib design I would think this would be a good thing, too. 

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Posted (edited)

Luke,  butting in on your conversation with Leni - If you are going to use the old Avid (2216?) glue, then get the instructions - they are a little different than the ones for 9460 about preparing the aluminum spars for glueing - I think.  I might have them in an old Kitfox 1 manual?

EDMO

Hi Ed:

Not butting in at all. I'm not sure what I'm going to use I have been researching what's the best of currently avable adhesive's. The prep doesn't look too bad on the wings so I'm thinking the orginal adhisives used were not mixed right or simply failed after years of not being stored or handled properly.

I would imagine there must have been a reason for Kitfox to change from 2216 to 9460?

EDMO

The evaluation of the desgine and meterals avable - affordable to work with would be my guess.  On first sight of the wings condtion after removing the cover I was pretty bummed out compleatly reworking them wasn't part of the plan. Then I started reading up on wing builds on the site and started to get excited about being able to incorporate the improvements of 20 plus years of evaluation and practical engineering.  I'll research kitfox's adhisives to see what there doing and why if I find any good info I'll share it here. Thanks Ed

BTW:  I agree with Leni about changing the twist to only 1/2 inch.   How long are those wing spars?  Same as Magnum?

EDMO

The spars are approximately 179" long the first 144" is .083 and then a 35" extension of .065 to the tip.  Not sure how it compares to the Magnum Spar.  The twist changed to 1/2" looks like the prevailing way to build the wings what are the advantages and drawbacks to going to 1/2" twist? 

Edited by lukemn

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Posted (edited)

Luke,  butting in on your conversation with Leni - If you are going to use the old Avid (2216?) glue, then get the instructions - they are a little different than the ones for 9460 about preparing the aluminum spars for glueing - I think.  I might have them in an old Kitfox 1 manual?

EDMO

Hi Ed:

Not butting in at all. I'm not sure what I'm going to use I have been researching what's the best of currently avable adhesive's. The prep doesn't look too bad on the wings so I'm thinking the orginal adhisives used were not mixed right or simply failed after years of not being stored or handled properly.

I would imagine there must have been a reason for Kitfox to change from 2216 to 9460?

EDMO

The evaluation of the desgine and meterals avable - affordable to work with would be my guess.  On first sight of the wings condtion after removing the cover I was pretty bummed out compleatly reworking them wasn't part of the plan. Then I started reading up on wing builds on the site and started to get excited about being able to incorporate the improvements of 20 plus years of evaluation and practical engineering.  I'll research kitfox's adhisives to see what there doing and why if I find any good info I'll share it here. Thanks Ed

BTW:  I agree with Leni about changing the twist to only 1/2 inch.   How long are those wing spars?  Same as Magnum?

EDMO

The spars are approximately 179" long the first 144" is .083 and then a 35" extension of .065 to the tip.  Not sure how it compares to the Magnum Spar.  The twist changed to 1/2" looks like the prevailing way to build the wings what are the advantages and drawbacks to going to 1/2" twist? 

I sold my Magnum book, so cant compare the wingspans. 

Advantages are supposed to be more top cruise speed, less drag, maybe quicker liftoff. 

Disadvantages, not much IMO - some have said that the increased twist gave inexperienced pilots more control at low speeds because tips didn't stall as soon, but most of the roll control near a stall is by the rudder anyway.

Any additional or conflicting comments about this are welcome.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

I know that the one I have now had the updates sponsons on it and did not use the wing tip incorporated floats.  The ones mine came with were the Avid fiberglass ones and the full lotus are MUCH lighter.    I am not too crazy about having that drooped tip hanging so far down.  I think if you were to catch a strut mounted sponson during ground operations the damage would be less than the tip sponson eating the ground.  Just my thoughts on it, I don't know if the thoughts hold any water or not.... no pun intended.

 

:BC:

The serviceability of the strut mounted outboard sponsons is definitely an attractive idea along with being able to remove them for cold weather flying and narrowing up the clearance needed to make use of a boat ramp. So taking that into account  I'd like to get full lotus sponsons ordered this week do you know if there is any additional pieces I should include from lotus (brackets, hardware etc.). If you have a chance to snap a few pictures of the sponson rigging that would be very helpful and what wingtips should I look into I'm thinking removable ones maby built-in lights? or......????

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Posted

I found this picture full lotus sponson on a beautiful Catalina. Is the mounting hardware a "standard" way of mounting the full lotus sponson?

Pa040004 (1).jpg

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Posted

Is there a manufactuer (kitfox) that makes the fiberglass part of the wing tips like the stock avid wing tips?  I looked on the kitfox site and didn't see tips for the models 1-3 avabile. 

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Posted

Is there a manufactuer (kitfox) that makes the fiberglass part of the wing tips like the stock avid wing tips?  I looked on the kitfox site and didn't see tips for the models 1-3 avabile. 

The only tip Kitfox used for the 1-3 models was the drooped tip.  If you cant find them, I have a used pair for sale at half new price.

EDMO

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Posted (edited)

Is there a manufactuer (kitfox) that makes the fiberglass part of the wing tips like the stock avid wing tips?  I looked on the kitfox site and didn't see tips for the models 1-3 avabile. 

The only tip Kitfox used for the 1-3 models was the drooped tip.  If you cant find them, I have a used pair for sale at half new price.

EDMo

Is the profile close to the avid undercamber wing? (I think there the same but don't know for sure) are the tips a bolt on? (removable type tip) and do you have any pictures of them?  If they fit and are in reasonable shape it sounds like a good deal to me

Edited by lukemn

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Posted (edited)

Is there a manufactuer (kitfox) that makes the fiberglass part of the wing tips like the stock avid wing tips?  I looked on the kitfox site and didn't see tips for the models 1-3 avabile. 

The only tip Kitfox used for the 1-3 models was the drooped tip.  If you cant find them, I have a used pair for sale at half new price.

EDMo

Is the profile close to the avid undercamber wing? (I think there the same but don't know for sure) are the tips a bolt on? (removable type tip) and do you have any pictures of them?  If they fit and are in reasonable shape it sounds like a good deal to me

Luke,  I think the profile is the same as the Avid undercamber rib - Why don't you ask Doug or someone about that?  I can get some photos probably by this weekend.  I think these were attached to the rib - will have to check on that - but guess you can always make them removeable - I don't remember if they have holes for lights, but photo should tell.  Hope this helps.  EDMO

 

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Is there a manufactuer (kitfox) that makes the fiberglass part of the wing tips like the stock avid wing tips?  I looked on the kitfox site and didn't see tips for the models 1-3 avabile. 

The only tip Kitfox used for the 1-3 models was the drooped tip.  If you cant find them, I have a used pair for sale at half new price.

EDMo

Is the profile close to the avid undercamber wing? (I think there the same but don't know for sure) are the tips a bolt on? (removable type tip) and do you have any pictures of them?  If they fit and are in reasonable shape it sounds like a good deal to me

Luke,  I think the profile is the same as the Avid undercamber rib - Why don't you ask Doug or someone about that?  I can get some photos probably by this weekend.  I think these were attached to the rib - will have to check on that - but guess you can always make them removeable - I don't remember if they have holes for lights, but photo should tell.  Hope this helps.  EDMO

 

Sounds good.  Who's Doug?

Sorry,  Doug Holly / A+ in Red Ink - our Supreme Library keeper - He has facts about most everything.  On the old list you could find him alphabetically, but guess on here you find a post, or start at members page 1?   Leni, Jim Chuk, or someone else might know too?

EDMO

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Posted (edited)

I'll see if I can get in touch with Doug. There's a kitfox that ground looped a few years ago at my airfield it's been left outside to rot (sad to see when I taxi past it) I can look it over this weekend and see if the rib profile looks the same. Some pictures would be great no rush as I'm a ways out on needing the wing tips. Thanks Ed

Edited by lukemn

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Posted

I'll see if I can get in touch with Doug. There's a kitfox that ground looped a few years ago at my airfield it's been left outside to rot (sad to see when I taxi past it) I can look it over this weekend and see if the rib profile looks the same. Some pictures would be great no rush as I'm a ways out on needing the wing tips. Thanks Ed

Leni now has a Cat and an Avid, and he can probably tell you if they are the same, and he probably knows how they compare to Foxes.

EDMO

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Posted

The rib profile is a little different but you could make it work.  If I was to do I would just put tip plates on the end rib that were flat plates sticking up about 2" all the way around the rib. 

 

:BC:

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Posted

+1 on the end cap idea, Leni!  

I almost did that with the Mangy, but the Hoerniers were not that bad of condition. 

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Posted (edited)

The rib profile is a little different but you could make it work.  If I was to do I would just put tip plates on the end rib that were flat plates sticking up about 2" all the way around the rib. 

 

:BC:

Sounds like a great idea sort of like the just aircraft wing tips.  So since I'm going to build all new ribs what profile undercamber? / speed? / other? For the little flying boat. 

Edited by lukemn

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Posted

The rib profile is a little different but you could make it work.  If I was to do I would just put tip plates on the end rib that were flat plates sticking up about 2" all the way around the rib. 

 

:BC:

Sounds like a great idea sort of like the just aircraft wing tips.  So since I'm going to build all new ribs what profile undercamber? / speed? / other? For the little flying boat. 

If you are going to build all new ribs, I would be really tempted to go with the KF IV airfoil..

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Posted (edited)

The rib profile is a little different but you could make it work.  If I was to do I would just put tip plates on the end rib that were flat plates sticking up about 2" all the way around the rib. 

 

:BC:

Sounds like a great idea sort of like the just aircraft wing tips.  So since I'm going to build all new ribs what profile undercamber? / speed? / other? For the little flying boat. 

If you are going to build all new ribs, I would be really tempted to go with the KF IV airfoil..

If you are going with KF4 airfoil, the drooped tips may not fit - So if you are going to use flat plates on the tips, I wont bother to dig out my tips for photos.   Let me know if otherwise.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

The rib profile is a little different but you could make it work.  If I was to do I would just put tip plates on the end rib that were flat plates sticking up about 2" all the way around the rib. 

 

:BC:

Sounds like a great idea sort of like the just aircraft wing tips.  So since I'm going to build all new ribs what profile undercamber? / speed? / other? For the little flying boat. 

If you are going to build all new ribs, I would be really tempted to go with the KF IV airfoil..

If you are going with KF4 airfoil, the drooped tips may not fit - So if you are going to use flat plates on the tips, I wont bother to dig out my tips for photos.   Let me know if otherwise.

EDMO

It's looking like the kitfox 4 airfoil is going to be the way to go.  So no pictures of wing tips needed thanks for offering to get pictures of them for me.

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Posted (edited)

 

So KF4 rib profile with 1/2" of washout, plate tips and full lotus sponsons from a week ago to today the plan for the wings has come a long way!!!  Thank you for all the advise!! I've got some parts on order and am going to keep on disassembling and cleaning up the wing parts I can reuse.  Is there other stuff from the KF4 wing I should be looking to incorporate like flaparon hangers adapted to my amphibian flaparons?   Ribs should I order all new from KF?  Order one and copy? find the profile somewhere online and make them all? If I remember from other posts I read the ribs from kitfox are a little pricey but if it's something I can order and not have to make from scratch sometimes that works out better time wise hum...............

Edited by lukemn

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Posted

Yes use the Kitfox flapperon hangers!  The avid /early Kitfox design of exposed rib tails sux!

If you have some skill, or better, know a water jet house, buy one Kitfox rib and copy it.  I have never found any online drawings, so if you reverse engineer them, I'd love to know the details. 

Work Out the price.  You may wind up better to just buy a wing kit, or partial kit, from Kitfox. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes use the Kitfox flapperon hangers!  The avid /early Kitfox design of exposed rib tails sux!

If you have some skill, or better, know a water jet house, buy one Kitfox rib and copy it.  I have never found any online drawings, so if you reverse engineer them, I'd love to know the details. 

Work Out the price.  You may wind up better to just buy a wing kit, or partial kit, from Kitfox. 

Hey Larry, check this thread. Post #14.

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/12005-trouble-plotting-riblet-airfoil.html

I downloaded it sometime in the past. I'm pretty sure this is the one I downloaded. I opened it in Solidworks, scaled it to full size, and printed it out. Laid a KF rib on it, and it fit perfectly. It's a Riblett GA30U-613.5. I have Ribletts airfoil book, but the coordinates for this one are not in there. I plotted the closest one GA30-612 or something like that, and it was a fair amount different even after conpensating for the slight thickness change. Not sure what the U in the name does.

 

Edited by Luked

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Posted (edited)

Luke,  I am not as sure as Larry about using the Kitfox 4  standard ribs and rib brackets with your old style flaperon hangers - It might be possible to make some sort of connecting part to mate your Avid hangers with the KF4 brackets - The other possibility is to modify the KF4 ribs something like I modified mine so you can have the tails to attach the flaperon hangers to them.  The last time I checked, Kitfox wanted about $78 a rib - I made 4 fixtures to assemble ribs after they were cut out with a router - Lots cheaper, and you can modify them if you need to.

NOTE:  If you don't keep your flaperons at the same original height and position, then all of your controls may not fit right.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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