The First Time Out

[allonsye 85]

This is a solicitation to the collective for feedback on flying my newly airworthy freshly overhauled 582 gray pwrd C Model ser# 951 for the 1st time.  I've not flown a TD since 2003 and that was the Tcraft I owned.  

I've spent at least 90 mins taxing both high speed tail-up taxing and low speed on asphalt runway and adjoining grass.  Whew.......feels like on an ice rink trying to keep her on the runwy ctrline at times.

Calm winds are in the 4cast 2morrow so the plan is to take advantage of it.  My strategy is to take off from the asphalt, stay in the pattern and shoot steep stabilized approaches into the 1k' grass area.  

I don't have any particular questions. But the one thing I've found very little of, is feedback on t/o and landing these things.  Must be fairly straight forward.

It's a fairly unique model C.  It has a Holman cowl and straight longerons.

paul

Edited 20 Oct 2015 by allonsye

[EDMO 1078]

I wish all new Avid-Fox flyers would get the Ed Downs book on flying the Kitfox.

He cautions against high-speed taxi.   Better to practice medium or slow speed until ready to fly, because that might just happen before you are ready.    I am not familiar with the Avids, but guess the C model is more like the Kitfox 3 or 4, having better elevator authority than the earlier models, which sometimes needed a little power added to flare.   Other than that, these birds are a little more touchy than the old factory TDs.

I would set my flaperons at about 10 degrees, and leave them that way for the whole flight.  Climbout should be at about 65, and final about 60, with maybe 50 at threshold - don't let it break into a stall on first flight, but carefully see where the ASI says it stops wanting to fly.

I am sure that there are others here, with lots more experience in Avids, who can give you some feedback.   Good Flying.

EdMO

Edited 20 Oct 2015 by EDMO

[TJay 1041]

Ha the first time I was in a tail dragger, It was the little fisher avenger you see in my avatar picture I played on the runway for a few minutes also, then tried the grass, much better, 5 minutes in the grass and firewall the throttle what a great day that was.

[allonsye 85]

Ha the first time I was in a tail dragger, It was the little fisher avenger you see in my avatar picture I played on the runway for a few minutes also, then tried the grass, much better, 5 minutes in the grass and firewall the throttle what a great day that was.

That's what I'm taking about !

[allonsye 85]

I wish all new Avid-Fox flyers would get the Ed Downs book on flying the Kitfox.

He cautions against high-speed taxi.   Better to practice medium or slow speed until ready to fly, because that might just happen before you are ready.    I am not familiar with the Avids, but guess the C model is more like the Kitfox 3 or 4, having better elevator authority than the earlier models, which sometimes needed a little power added to flare.   Other than that, these birds are a little more touchy than the old factory TDs.

I am sure that there are others here, with lots more experience in Avids, who can give you some feedback.   Good Flying.

EdMO

Ed - I got her up to say 40 or so.......assuming that's a high speed taxi.  Don't think I'll be doing anymore of that.  I totally get what Mr. Downs is getting at and I've not read his book, didn't know it existed.

[EDMO 1078]

Ed - I got her up to say 40 or so.......assuming that's a high speed taxi.  Don't think I'll be doing anymore of that.  I totally get what Mr. Downs is getting at and I've not read his book, didn't know it existed.

You can get the book from Kitfox fairly cheap - Great book even for old flyers - Tells a lot about the different Kitfox models and lots of specs on them, but useful flying info for all Avid pilots too.  Guessing its still in print - I have one or two.

Ed says that "This is a high-performance airplane" - "If you are not ready to fly before you get to the count of 5 after full throttle, then you are way behind the plane.

EdMO

Edited 20 Oct 2015 by EDMO

[C5Engineer 1170]

Yes stop taxiing with the tail up. One gust of wind and your along as a passenger in a plane that is not flying or landing. Flying these is easy. As far as landing other then maintaining directional control of course my advice is land it power on. They decelerate insanely fast with the power out compared to anything else I've flown. Be prepared for a noticeable nose down vector when you pull the power to descend. On that note not sure how much 2-stroke time you have but DO NOT pull the power back to 4-5000 rpm and start a descent. Unloaded and in the midrange the EGTs will skyrocket. Either chop and drop and or fly a power on descent until you get a feel for what your set up does. Use a combination of power and flare to stop the sink when you round out. If you pull it to idle 5 feet off the ground and try to flare using only elevator like a spam can unless you are going 75 mph  you are going to have a bent seat truss and wonder what just happened. 60 is a safe speed for climb cruise and approach until you get some time in her. Have fun, good luck, remember cameras and crowds on the first flight are the enemy, and post a flight report when you get back! 

[Dusty 126]

I would stay on the grass,I agree with Ed no high speed taxi runs,low speed or go fly!

a kitfox is most vulnerable in the slowing down phase of the landing and needs to be kept under accurate control 

It depends on your instructors preference  but I was taught to three point, but after hundreds of hours/landings I believe a tail low wheeler is best in all but a direct into wind landing as the rudder is more affective.

even to the point of adding power while braking(20 kts gusting 25 direct across the runway a few weeks ago the rudder was there when required)a three pointer would have ended in tears!

[EDMO 1078]

I have copied two pages of Ed Downs book - I had the title wrong, it is "Kitfox Pilot's Guide".

Attaching pages,   EDMO

[wypaul 448]

The biggest thing for me was the fact that it wanted alittle power to land it.  Mine is a MK IV with a 912.  Also double check the wheel alignment.  I also suggest that you remove cam on the Maule tail wheel so that will not break free until you get some time in the plane.

Paul

[Av8r3400 1178]

I also suggest that you remove cam on the Maule tail wheel so that will not break free until you get some time in the plane.

x1000 on that one!!

You said 40 mph.  At that speed your plane is flying.  A very dangerous game you have been playing...

[EDMO 1078]

x1000 on that one!!

You said 40 mph.  At that speed your plane is flying.  A very dangerous game you have been playing...

This may apply to the other Larry too?   I wish people would get advise before testing....

EdMO

[allonsye 85]

Yes stop taxiing with the tail up. One gust of wind and your along as a passenger in a plane that is not flying or landing. Flying these is easy. As far as landing other then maintaining directional control of course my advice is land it power on. They decelerate insanely fast with the power out compared to anything else I've flown. Be prepared for a noticeable nose down vector when you pull the power to descend. On that note not sure how much 2-stroke time you have but DO NOT pull the power back to 4-5000 rpm and start a descent. Unloaded and in the midrange the EGTs will skyrocket. Either chop and drop and or fly a power on descent until you get a feel for what your set up does. Use a combination of power and flare to stop the sink when you round out. If you pull it to idle 5 feet off the ground and try to flare using only elevator like a spam can unless you are going 75 mph  you are going to have a bent seat truss and wonder what just happened. 60 is a safe speed for climb cruise and approach until you get some time in her. Have fun, good luck, remember cameras and crowds on the first flight are the enemy, and post a flight report when you get back! 

Joey -  You are likely familiar with the Back Country Vids.  Based on your statement, I'd say you cannot fly this aircraft like that eg. 40 mph nose high, flaps on stablized approach but more along the lines you so stated; yes?

[allonsye 85]

x1000 on that one!!

You said 40 mph.  At that speed your plane is flying.  A very dangerous game you have been playing...

Thanks, yes, I actually did remove the Maule cam prior.

[allonsye 85]

I wish all new Avid-Fox flyers would get the Ed Downs book on flying the Kitfox.

He cautions against high-speed taxi.   Better to practice medium or slow speed until ready to fly, because that might just happen before you are ready.    I am not familiar with the Avids, but guess the C model is more like the Kitfox 3 or 4, having better elevator authority than the earlier models, which sometimes needed a little power added to flare.   Other than that, these birds are a little more touchy than the old factory TDs.

I am sure that there are others here, with lots more experience in Avids, who can give you some feedback.   Good Flying.

EdMO

 

 

even to the point of adding power while braking(20 kts gusting 25 direct across the runway a few weeks ago the rudder was there when required)a three pointer would have ended in tears!

Interesting.  This evening a retired airline guy at the field described to me how last Sat a cross wind turned him 90 deg right landing his Pietenpol. He saved it by adding full power and kicking LEFT rudder to get it to settle down.  Were his tail wheel on the ground he wouldn't have recovered it.  Thanks for the added point.

Edited 20 Oct 2015 by allonsye

[C5Engineer 1170]

Joey -  You are likely familiar with the Back Country Vids.  Based on your statement, I'd say you cannot fly this aircraft like that eg. 40 mph nose high, flaps on stablized approach but more along the lines you so stated; yes?

You can to a point. These wings will fly slower than the tail. I drag mine in using a lot of power if I am trying to get in really short like under 300 ft short. The limiting factor is the TW smacking first hence why I am running huge tires and extended gear and extended my elevator and added  VGs and gap seals. The problem with the drug in approach is if the engine hiccups your stalled before you can even think of dumping the nose to recover.

[allonsye 85]

You can to a point. These wings will fly slower than the tail. I drag mine in using a lot of power if I am trying to get in really short like under 300 ft short. The limiting factor is the TW smacking first hence why I am running huge tires and extended gear and extended my elevator and added  VGs and gap seals. The problem with the drug in approach is if the engine hiccups your stalled before you can even think of dumping the nose to recover.

Got it.  Thanks man.  Excellent feedback.

[allonsye 85]

This may apply to the other Larry too?   I wish people would get advise before testing....

EdMO

Actually, you're right. It felt as though it was flying.  The good news is that I choose to operate while wind was calm or straight down the runway. And 2, I stayed ahead of the aircraft with good control inputs/reactions.  It was important to me to get a feel first for what to expect in an actual landing.  Likely though too, truth be told, building self-confidence was likely the greater of the factor.

Edited 20 Oct 2015 by allonsye
content

[thebriman 69]

The biggest thing for me was the fact that it wanted alittle power to land it.  Mine is a MK IV with a 912.  Also double check the wheel alignment.  I also suggest that you remove cam on the Maule tail wheel so that will not break free until you get some time in the plane.

Paul

I have 200 hours in my avid, never had the cam on my tailwheel.  I dont miss it.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Sounds like you are ready to go! I ended up in the air on accident the night before my first trip around the patch. Had 4000 ft of Rwy so added some power flew it down the runway a ways and landed. The next morning I did my warm up and run up in front of the hangar. Taxied out and didn't even stop I just nailed it before I had enough time to psych myself out about it. When you are confident it's time and everything is right it's no big deal. Exciting times!!!

[allonsye 85]

So, after .6 and 5 landings late this afternoon; I dug out the old log book, blew the dust of it, cracked it open to the last musty page and saw that the last entry for PIC was in 2007.  And you wonder why I had so much angst and was taking this in baby steps?

Anyways, thanks everyone who commented.  Joey, the 60/60 advise/rule worked like a charm.  This was the very first time behind a 2-stroke (that last atop one in the form of a Yamaha RD350 many yrs ago).  I can only describe the experience as a mixed feeling of surreal what w/all the wailing RPM (watching Joey's videos prepped me for this), and that it felt like there was just a wing and no tail.  I could not get into a groove in the pattern where it felt it was trued out.  Flaps, eng rpm, pitch.........any input at all seemed to upset everything else.  Like I was along for the ride with a bunch of clowns providing entertainment inputs to put it strongly.  But it was fun and I'll sort it out.  I stayed in the abundant grassy areas of 8W2; it didn't need much either to pick up her skirts and leap off the ground.  Landings, piece of cake but as you'd expect need some polishing up.

What a piece!

[allonsye 85]

The biggest thing for me was the fact that it wanted alittle power to land it.  Mine is a MK IV with a 912.  Also double check the wheel alignment.  I also suggest that you remove cam on the Maule tail wheel so that will not break free until you get some time in the plane.

Paul

I have 200 hours in my avid, never had the cam on my tailwheel.  I dont miss it.

 

The biggest thing for me was the fact that it wanted alittle power to land it.  Mine is a MK IV with a 912.  Also double check the wheel alignment.  I also suggest that you remove cam on the Maule tail wheel so that will not break free until you get some time in the plane.

Paul

I have 200 hours in my avid, never had the cam on my tailwheel. But I can simply pick her up by the handle and walk her in anyways.  I dont miss it either Brian.

You know, the only time I'm missing that cam is in pushing her back into the hanger - that 360 deg rotation.  Thinking I'm going to leave it off too.

Edited 23 Oct 2015 by allonsye

[thebriman 69]

Very good Paul!  I'm glad you finally got her in the air!!!

[Knuckledragger 135]

  Joey, the 60/60 advise/rule worked like a charm.

Congratulations!   What is the 60/60 rule?

[C5Engineer 1170]

60 mph works good for climb, cruise, and approach as a very general rule of thumb.

Congrats on your first flight! Rudder is very sensitive on these planes and you will find if you stick the ass end someplace it will stay there and not really want to self center like a bigger heavier plane. On long flights I often stick my right leg across middle of the plane to stretch out. I end up having to keep tapping back and forth on the rudder pedals with my left foot to keep the ball centered.

Where did you set the incidence of your flaperons with the handle clear down? A few negative degrees (reflex) seems to work pretty good. The more reflex you add the more nose up trim you will have using flapersons BUT there is a tradeoff because the roll axis will start getting stiff. As you start getting some time on her start playing with the flaperons in flight in very small increments. They are very sensitive to the pitch axis.

Glad your landings worked out well. Grass helps a TON. Just be careful because I have found about the time I am feeling really comfortable in my airplane it does something to make sure I remember that she's the boss.