Beginner Take Offs and Landings

[Knuckledragger 135]

I've been working on take offs and landings the last couple of days.  Here is video compilation showing the first few and then later as things got better.  Please be critical where needed.  I welcome the feedback.

https://youtu.be/eo_ioshpxvI

 

[EDMO 1078]

I know that the long pattern gives you more time to get set up for touchdown, but try shortening your pattern as you get more practice.  Sometimes there are restrictions that wont let you have a long pattern and final approach.

I routinely turn on final at about 400 agl unless there are other reasons to go higher or lower.

EDMO

Edited 2 Nov 2015 by EDMO

[Dusty 126]

I am not an instructor so take this as an opinion only and get advice from an instructor .

I am not a fan of the long flat approach,if the fire goes out at the wrong time you may have a bad day

try (at altitude first)getting on the back of the drag curve.

if you are currently on final at 60kts and getting 500fpm decent try 45-45 kts you will get a slightly higher sink rate and a much steeper approach,your airspeed will be easier to control using the stick,be prepared to give a stab of power on round out if the sink is a little high(kitfoxes and Avids can run out of elevator at this point)

Now imagine an engine failure over those trees,check forward get back on the "step"a flatter decent,you will most likely get to the runway

this is how I was taught,it works for my plane.

your plane/approach speeds may be quite different.

[Knuckledragger 135]

Guys, thanks for the great feedback. 

Pattern entry altitude at this field is 1000 AGL.  Generally base to base/final I cut power to idle, and am usually at around 700.  I'll try tightening the pattern some and see what that yields.  I like to know how far I can "glide" in from.

The last couple of landings on the video I glide base and final and still fwd slip pretty hard on short final to get the threshold where I want it.

Dusty: I'll do some more slow flight at altitude to see if 45-55 gets better results in my plane.  What I think hear you saying also is approach it like a soft field landing and come in slow (less energy) and give it a touch of power as I rotate for the float to keep it up with the stick instead of using energy from the glide to keep it floating in ground effect.

I'll work on these suggestions and report back!

Edited 2 Nov 2015 by Knuckledragger

[akflyer 1427]

Dusty is spot on, that long float is from too much speed.  I too like to stay high in the pattern even when flying a tight one.  After having a few engine outs on various planes I have learned I can slip hard and make the runway, but I damn sure can't stretch the glide to make it.  If your using less that half to 3/4 rudder in the slip your leaving a lot on the table.  I can slip and drop out of the sky at better than 2000 fpm at 50 mph and still have a little energy for the flare, but I normally add a touch of power to smooth it out unless I am on a one way gotta get it down no matter how ugly strip. 

One thing about mine though is with the clutch, when I pull power to an idle, its a HUGE air brake out front so between that, the 6" extended gear and the big tires, I am pretty much out of options in a glide other than that which is damn near directly below me   OK not quite that bad, but much more sink than a standard avid or KF.

Nothing will help your pattern or approach speed more than putting gas through those tanks and just getting to where you dont even look at the ASI your just head out of the cockpit and flying by the seat of your pants.  You don't even think about what your doing, you just do it.  That my friend only comes with time and practice.  Keep it up, in your case, I would rather spend a little time floating down the runway than to come up short on an engine out. 

Are you using flaps? 

[Knuckledragger 135]

 

Are you using flaps? 

I've been experimenting with flaps. 

For take off I put in about 1/3 (I pull the little chrome tube up about 1/3 of it's travel).  Take off flaps seem to make little difference, at least the way I'm using them. 

On approach it feels better leaving the flaps out most of the way adding them in when very near the threshold.  Then rolling along on the ground I push the handle back to the floor.

I leave them out when the crosswinds pick up.

[jjbaker 73]

Not really critique, just some pointers...

When flying the Pitts, I learned to fly my patterns close enough to close the throttle abeam the numbers and assure that the wreckage will be located on the airport property. It took some time for us to to play nice with each other, because every-time I closed the throttle, my sleek and sexy aircraft turned into a falling brick and the screams from the front seat became distracting. I was only allowed to do power on approaches (slip, traditional to have any vision) after I had consistently managed power offs from abeam.

It appears from your landings (can't really tell) that you are carrying some power throughout the final approach, all the way to the ground, probably because you get better directional and elevator control out of it this way. Speed appears a bit high. When you do finally use the flaps you're changing the energy- setup (and what you can ask from the plane at any given time) in the last few hundred feet before touchdown, in other words these last second configuration changes make you busy. It "feels" safer to leave some power on the engine, however you end up with excessive energy available - which the aircraft then converts into distance. With half or full flaps you may well end up hanging on the prop on short final, so once the fan stops (and it does so very suddenly) you're low and slow, in a bad spot to raise your flaps to regain some of that energy. My rule: The flaps are out full when there is ABSOLUTELY no way to come short of the field in case the fan(s) stop(s). I do the same on the twin or singles. 

I would suggest to keep your pattern crisp enough to be able to fly two solid turns (downwind - base & base - final) without having to add power again. Set flaps only after you feel confident to make the field and then aim a bit short of your intended landing spot, if you have excessive speed available. Try different flap settings to get an idea of where she wants to sit or (better words) play with the thing to find your "feels about right" point. Do the power offs with and without flaps to learn what the aircraft does and how that angle of attack on final affects your ability to slow down. The bush-pilot stuff going into unimproved fields (where we often need to hang ourselves on the prop) comes later. Many of those going into those unimproved fields admit that they are in the wrong spot at the wrong time if that ventilator stops in the windshield. In normal operation, avoid dependency on that engine when and where possible. 

All in all - you're using the available space and you don't seem to be pumping during round-out and float - a habit many people pick up. All pretty calm stuff and well done. 

Certainly not "total rookie, haven't seen a plane before beginner" landings.

[Knuckledragger 135]

Great write up JJ. I really appreciate it. It's hard to tell, but I do pull power to idle in this vid right about when I'm finishing up turn dw to base  (last  couple of landings) and always at least during final.   

I'm away from the plane while at work. I'm looking forward to this weekend where I can put all this great input into practice!

it will feel good to know how big I can fly the pattern and still make the field engine at idle.   

Edited 3 Nov 2015 by Knuckledragger

[nlappos 413]

As an experienced FW instructor, but with only about 75 hours on taildraggers, all on my Avid MK IV, I am reluctant to weigh in here, but when has that ever stopped me?

General comments: 1) You want to work on the glide to assure that you spot the first third of the landing area from a long way up. Look for the place where the objects are going up the windshield because you are heading to a point below them. It is really easy to do with your excellent video. Freeze the screen a few times on the early approaches and guess where that spot is. Up until 12:45 you were consistently long, about half way down the runway, and that played havoc with the consistency of the landings. But you got that down pretty nicely in the end, a lot by biting the bullet and knowing that the trees had to be close to the gear if the approach was working!

2) It seemed like your float was due to a bit too much speed in the final. I find that I carry 60 mph in the approach and then 55 over the threshold, and float is just right to let me get a 3 pointer. Are you holding 55 or even 50 over the threshold?

3) Flaps. I find that 1/2 flaps are a great add, they point me down at the runway, and they let me get the stick all the way back on touchdown, esp if I have 55 or less over the threshold. Also, as I touchdown, I drop the flap lever and the aircraft gives up flying fast, and slows down fast when the gear takes all the weight.

4) You are self-teaching very well. No bad habits, consistent improvement, and safe as can be.

[Knuckledragger 135]

nlappos, thanks for the great feedback.  Since this video I've logged just over 30 hours and 220 take offs.  Much of this time has been spent flying around the patch doing slow flight maneuvers, stalls, steep turns and lately practicing in windy conditions generally up to 15G20.  Last weekend I went barnstorming on a windy day to shoot landings at runways with various orientations to the prevailing gusty conditions.  Its starting to feel more like I'm flying as opposed to i'm flying the plane.  

Regarding your comments about speeds at various stages of the landing approach pattern: I find I like to cut power and raise the nose to slow to about 60 abeam the point where I want to touchdown.  I keep that speed until short final where I'm pretty sure I slow to 50 over the threshold until about 45 where the plane wants to settle onto the runway with the nose held high.  Right after I clear the obstructions on short final I give a second or two of nose down to pick up just enough energy to float it in GF just long enough to stall it inches high or grease it on.

Regarding flaps, when it's windy like its been the last couple of weeks, I tend to use less or none.  Its usually a judgment call on final as I peek at the socks.  If the sock is out straight I'll leave the flaps out.  if its sagging some I'll use about 1/2 - 3/4 and if its fairly calm I'll use full flaps on landing.  Take off it seems about 0-1/2 flaps depending on crosswinds.   I like how putting the flaps in brings down the nose and increases the drag.  One thing I've started to notice with this avid, is on short field TO's I can get off the ground in a hurry with full flaps.  I reckon that since the TO speed is so low, that drag created by the flaps is not enough of a factor on acceleration like it might be on a GA plane.

The guys at the field have mentioned that the plane seems like it should have conventional gear.  Each time I land the tail is just off the ground, dragging through the grass and the nose wheel is up. As the landings have gotten "better' I've noticed that my sight picture out front is pretty much completely sky and I am starting to pick up "ques" in my peripheral vision as to where I am in relation to the approaching ground.  The front tire, after close to 300 landings on it, still has the little paint stripe going around the middle - Grass is Good

I will also add that stick discipline (ailerons turned into the wind and elevator down when the wind is coming from behind) around the field during windy conditions seems very important with the plane being so light.  

Wind sheer:  A couple of days ago I encountered some scivy swapping wind sheer.  I felt like I was on a leaf tumbling off a tree!  Wowzers!

 

 

 

Edited 9 Dec 2015 by Knuckledragger