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582 Fuel requirements

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Posted (edited)

What do you use? Factory says no less than MON 83 or Ron 90 (as per my manual). The average of the two (what we use) is 86.5. I have been putting 89 non-eth in mine.

I am fixing to set a tank for my old hotrods and race boats and mix 100LL and non-eth 87, 50:50. Both need the lead and the shelf life of the additional av gas doesn't hurt a thing as the tank is 580 gallons. I thought about running this but my experience has been too much octane can hurt performance.

The hot rodder coming out in me.... Does anyone have any experience to raising the compression on the 582? The only thing bad about that is starting the damn thing.... Mine's a string puller.

I have another tank I can put 87 or 89 in also.

Edited by Fly-n-Low

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We use to plane heads off on the 2 cycles all the time. Starting the sled was no issue but running at low altitudes was. Need to stay above 4000 feet or they Ping real bad.

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Posted (edited)

What do you use? Factory says no less than MON 83 or Ron 90 (as per my manual). The average of the two (what we use) is 86.5. I have been putting 89 non-eth in mine.

I am fixing to set a tank for my old hotrods and race boats and mix 100LL and non-eth 87, 50:50. Both need the lead and the shelf life of the additional av gas doesn't hurt a thing as the tank is 580 gallons. I thought about running this but my experience has been too much octane can hurt performance.

The hot rodder coming out in me.... Does anyone have any experience to raising the compression on the 582? The only thing bad about that is starting the damn thing.... Mine's a string puller.

I have another tank I can put 87 or 89 in also.

We ran a mix of 4 gal non-eth "regular" mogas mixed with 1 gallon 100LL and 2 oz. Marvel Mystery Oil in our Continentals.   The 100LL has 4 times as much lead in it as the old 87 had.  Worked good, and kept the lead out of the plugs.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

if you start messing with stuff like that you are totally on your own and risk spending all your time messing with it or worse. If you are flying same day use 87. Mixing it lowers the octane. If it's going to sit for a bit use 91 as the higher octane gives you some buffer. 582s hate Avgas it will destroy a set of plugs in a few hrs and it coats other places of the motor you don't want deposits. The higher octane slows down the flame front on the piston and causes lower EGTs and an incomplete burn. These two things combined lead to carbon build up which aside from burning them down from being too lean is your next worst enemy.  Any Mogas is considered unusuable by Rotax after 30 days. 

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Posted

I believe the 532 Rotax ran higher compression than the 582.  It's 521 CC and the 582 is 580, but they both supposedly made the same HP.  Jim Chuk

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Posted

As a rule, everyone in my group runs 91 or 92 mo-gas in their Rotaxes.  Two or four strokers. Just because the shit they call mo-gas these days goes bad so quickly. 

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Posted (edited)

if you start messing with stuff like that you are totally on your own and risk spending all your time messing with it or worse. If you are flying same day use 87. Mixing it lowers the octane. If it's going to sit for a bit use 91 as the higher octane gives you some buffer. 582s hate Avgas it will destroy a set of plugs in a few hrs and it coats other places of the motor you don't want deposits. The higher octane slows down the flame front on the piston and causes lower EGTs and an incomplete burn. These two things combined lead to carbon build up which aside from burning them down from being too lean is your next worst enemy.  Any Mogas is considered unusuable by Rotax after 30 days. 

I don't know anything about your 2-stroke Rotaxes;  but for a 4-stroke, TCP, Decalin, or 4:1 Mo:Avgas takes care of all the leading - TCP just makes the inside of your exhaust white.  I ran my Continental on that for 10 years with no problem, and my buddy has run both of his that way for about 25 years now.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Ed 4:1 lead in any Rotax still requires the use of leaded fuel protocols.  Non-synthetic oil, increased oil chance frequency, lead scavenging additive (Decalin), high power settings to keep head temps up, more frequent gearbox maintenance to remove lead deposits, etc, etc. 

Rotax 912 engines can not be run like Ly-Con dinosaurs. 

Best practice is to stay away from lead.  Period. 

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Posted

Thanks guys. I guess I'll stick with the 89 non-eth as that is as high as I can get. Didn't know lead would be that bad, even at 50:50. My other two strokes are high compression and spin at least 2,000 more than the Rotax's max. Maybe that is why I haven't had any problem with lead fouling.

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I Don"t care for 100LL In my planes mostly because of the cost,  but I will say my little Inverted 503 on my challenger has had 100's of gallons of 100LL pumped through it Running with Amsoil  with no issues. I do know the 503 runs a bit hotter than the 582 that is just fan cooling vs Liquid cooling.  

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I Don"t care for 100LL In my planes mostly because of the cost,  but I will say my little Inverted 503 on my challenger has had 100's of gallons of 100LL pumped through it Running with Amsoil  with no issues. I do know the 503 runs a bit hotter than the 582 that is just fan cooling vs Liquid cooling.  

TJay,

Other than severe plug fouling, when Avgas was replaced with 100LL with 4 times the lead of the old Avgas 87, the other problem was that lead could build up and (chunks?) could plug the oil passages - we had to go to an engine oil that would scavage the lead out of the engine - since the old mineral oil couldn't do that.  I don't know how it would affect the 2-strokes.

EDMO

 

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Posted

I run 89 ethanol free moo gas & Penzoil.  I'm looking to switch to Amsoil once I find a local source for it.

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Posted

I have been using Amsoil HP Marine. Its available all over.

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Posted

I am a preferred customer. I buy it by the case online. Ships to the front porch. Lasts quite a while. 

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Damn shame for me on the 100LL not being good in 582's.  The owner of my company lets those of us who operate aircraft to pull up to the 100LL pump on our ramp and help ourselves -- log what we pump.  He never seems to remember to charge us with a wink and a nod (one of the nicest guys in the world).  I've instead been purchasing non-eth 93 mogas around $3 a gal.  I should probably investigate the use of some sort of scavenging agent so I can use the 100.

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Posted (edited)

Damn shame for me on the 100LL not being good in 582's.  The owner of my company lets those of us who operate aircraft to pull up to the 100LL pump on our ramp and help ourselves -- log what we pump.  He never seems to remember to charge us with a wink and a nod (one of the nicest guys in the world).  I've instead been purchasing non-eth 93 mogas around $3 a gal.  I should probably investigate the use of some sort of scavenging agent so I can use the 100.

TCP or Decalin changes the lead into oxide or something at the moment of burning and it is left as a white coating in your exhaust.   Seems like others have used 100LL with no problems without it - I don't know much about 2-strokes.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

The 582 manual just says if burning low lead to service the plugs every 25 instead of 50 hours

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Posted (edited)

The 582 manual just says if burning low lead to service the plugs every 25 instead of 50 hours

That will probably have to be done unless you use TCP or Decalin, which should help keep the lead from fouling the plugs -

For free gas, I could buy some extra plugs! 

But, I don't have a dog in this fight - My Soob will run on about anything, I just have to worry about the tanks!

EDMO

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

The previous owner of KNZ did 750hrs exclusively on avgas before selling the engine to another flyer,apart from the usual servicing he never had to do anything major,when I got it the only problem was a rotten exhaust,avgas is hard on exhausts.

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The previous owner of KNZ did 750hrs exclusively on avgas before selling the engine to another flyer,apart from the usual servicing he never had to do anything major,when I got it the only problem was a rotten exhaust,avgas is hard on exhausts.

Possibly this was because the fuel mixture was still on fire as it came out of the exhaust. There are so many variables using high octane fuel in any engine. The fuel some call "hotter" is hardly that. It has a slower burn therefore higher compression, piston diameter, head design, quench area, long rods (duration time at TDC) are all factors.

Knowing what I know, I would say an increase in compression AND to set the timing up a few degrees to take full advantage of the fuel would prove to be a HP and efficiency gain. 100LL has more power per pound than 87 or 93. You have to compensate for that and it will make more power.

I was thinking a fool proof timing, compression, jetting on a 100LL engine would be a benefit because of a reliable fuel source at most any airport. Once you go that way, you can never go back though.

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Posted

Leaded fuel when burnt produces a corrosive mix,when we removed lead from our auto fuel here, within a few years there was hardly an exhaust shop to be found.Leaded fuel will rot a non stainless exhaust.      

I run mainly 98 unleaded pump gas but use avgas when on a xcountry for convenience,the egt's generally are slightly lower on avgas,

yes the timing can be advanced(I did)but the performance gain was not noticable

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Posted

If TCP or Decalin changes the chemistry of the lead when burned, then might that stop the corrosion in the exhaust system?

EDMO

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Leaded fuel when burnt produces a corrosive mix,when we removed lead from our auto fuel here, within a few years there was hardly an exhaust shop to be found.Leaded fuel will rot a non stainless exhaust.      

I run mainly 98 unleaded pump gas but use avgas when on a xcountry for convenience,the egt's generally are slightly lower on avgas,

yes the timing can be advanced(I did)but the performance gain was not noticable

Interesting. Not disagreeing with you. I remember running good ole 89 with lead. I guess I hadn't noticed as I was always changing headers and different exhaust systems.

Have a guy that has a muffler shop and does my custom work. He is doing a lot of welding on building railings and decorative stuff for houses. I stopped to buy a piece of pipe to set my Martin house in and mentioned about  the lack of muffler jobs, and he said all the exhausts on new cars were aluminized. That was about 10 or so years ago.

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Posted

The old leaded auto gas had only a small fraction of the amount of tetraethyl lead that 100LL has.

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! run mainly 98 unleaded pump gas but use avgas when on a xcountry for convenience,the egt's generally are slightly lower on avgas,

yes the timing can be advanced(I did)but the performance gain was not noticable

Where are you buying 98 pump gas?

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