Gross weight and LSA qualified

34 posts in this topic

Posted

Maybe some one can help answer a question about the LSA rule on the KitfoxV I've purchased! The plane had been registered and certified as "Experimental" the prior owner posesed a regular private pilots licsence. The plane was registered with a Gross weight of 1400 lbs., the Light Sport Aircraft rule state's, 1320 lbs. Max Gross Weight, the plane only weighs 750 lbs. Empty, With full fuel tanks and 2, 200lbs. People it still comes in under 1300 lbs. the rest is cargo weight. Can this be re certified to meet the LSA weight limit? Thanks for any answers!

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Posted

If the aircraft was ever outside of the light sport category, it can't go back into it.  If in the paperwork, it says it has a gross weight of over 1320, it can't go back legally.  Same would apply for an inflight adjustable prop.  Sorry,  Jim Chuk

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Posted (edited)

If the aircraft was ever outside of the light sport category, it can't go back into it.  If in the paperwork, it says it has a gross weight of over 1320, it can't go back legally.  Same would apply for an inflight adjustable prop.  Sorry,  Jim Chuk

Jim is correct on that - some Ercoupes started out at about 1260 GW, but the "D" model and later, and some of the earlier ones that were modified were at 1400 GW -  Same thing with the Luscombs - The FAA says that any plane ever certificated/flown with a higher than 1320 GW cannot be changed back to Light Sport Category.  Guess you need to start working on a private pilots license, (and you still have to pass a 3rd class medical until they change the rules, like they are trying to do). 

Now, let me add the good side to your Kitfox 5 bargain:  You can fly it with a student permit and CFI until he signs you off for solo - you can fly it as long as you need to as a student until you are ready to pass your Private Pilot test.   I had a friend who was about a 20-year student pilot and never took the test!  There are some restrictions as a student.  But I think that with some study and experience, the Private Pilot Training will make you a better pilot, and you can go places that a Sport Pilot can't.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Sorry.  No.

Once an aircraft has been certificated outside the LSA window (1320 vs 1400#) it can never go back.  You have an Experimental Amateur Built, non-LSA aircraft.

Do you have a private level license?  3rd class medical?  Then you are fine.  If you only have a Light Sport Certificate, you will need to either get more license or a different plane.

 

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Posted

Ed, the PBOR2 law as it sits still would require at least one 3rd class medical to be taken.  After that you won't need another trip to the AME, just a family doc willing to sign off every 4 years.

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Posted (edited)

Ed, the PBOR2 law as it sits still would require at least one 3rd class medical to be taken.  After that you won't need another trip to the AME, just a family doc willing to sign off every 4 years.

I believe the 3rd class has to be in the last 10 years - mine is 12 or 15 years ago - and my family doc gets a funny, disbelieving, look on his face each time I get ready to leave his office when I say, "See you next year Doc" - I keep wondering about that!

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

If you've never had one you have to get one, also. 

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Posted

If the aircraft was ever outside of the light sport category, it can't go back into it.  If in the paperwork, it says it has a gross weight of over 1320, it can't go back legally.  Same would apply for an inflight adjustable prop.  Sorry,  Jim Chuk

funny thing about that law is I don't think it is in any paperwork .

If the aircraft was ever outside of the light sport category, it can't go back into it.  If in the paperwork, it says it has a gross weight of over 1320, it can't go back legally.  Same would apply for an inflight adjustable prop.  Sorry,  Jim Chuk

Jim is correct on that - some Ercoupes started out at about 1260 GW, but the "D" model and later, and some of the earlier ones that were modified were at 1400 GW -  Same thing with the Luscombs - The FAA says that any plane ever certificated/flown with a higher than 1320 GW cannot be changed back to Light Sport Category.  Guess you need to start working on a private pilots license, (and you still have to pass a 3rd class medical until they change the rules, like they are trying to do). 

Now, let me add the good side to your Kitfox 5 bargain:  You can fly it with a student permit and CFI until he signs you off for solo - you can fly it as long as you need to as a student until you are ready to pass your Private Pilot test.   I had a friend who was about a 20-year student pilot and never took the test!  There are some restrictions as a student.  But I think that with some study and experience, the Private Pilot Training will make you a better pilot, and you can go places that a Sport Pilot can't.

EDMO

+1

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Posted

If the aircraft was ever outside of the light sport category, it can't go back into it.  If in the paperwork, it says it has a gross weight of over 1320, it can't go back legally.  Same would apply for an inflight adjustable prop.  Sorry,  Jim Chuk

funny thing about that law is I don't think it is in any paperwork .

 

There will be Operating Limitations filed with the original airworthiness certification at FAA in OK City.  These may not have accompanied the bill of sale but they are there, and there is a record.  

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Posted (edited)

Another place where the gross weight would maybe be listed in paperwork, is when the plane is taken out of phase 1 flight.  Your are required to list in the log book stall speed and best rate of climb speed at gross (listed) weight.  This is written in the aircrafts log book, and you are stating  (certifying) that the plane is safe to operate at those speeds and weight.  Jim Chuk

Edited by 1avidflyer

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Posted (edited)

Another place where the gross weight would maybe be listed in paperwork, is when the plane is taken out of phase 1 flight.  Your are required to list in the log book stall speed and best rate of climb speed at gross (listed) weight.  This is written in the aircrafts log book, and you are stating  (certifying) that the plane is safe to operate at those speeds and weight.  Jim Chuk

I have been wondering about that for a long time - Say the Kit supplier lists the GW as 1400, and you fly Phase 1 at a max of 1300 GW, does the ramp checker go by your logbook, or what the kit supplier says the max GW for that model can be?

Since mine is scratch-built, with no kit supplied, I can set whatever GW I want on it, and the CG range.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Unless something has changed, there is nothing on the registration paperwork that lists a gross weight (EAB does not have a gross weight anyway, they have a maximum take off weight).  As Jim said, maybe in the log book, but the pen i  mightier than the sword if that is the case.  On all EAB planes I have sent in the 10 bucks to get the CD on, no where was it (gross/max take off weight) listed on any paperwork.  I do know that we have had one former member here successfully have his KF V used in the LS category.  I would just fly it under SP rules and if ever ramp checked let them prove that it is not eligible... then claim ignorance as your logbook now states its 1320.  The builder of the plane sets the gross weight.  If you wanted to fly the plane in phase 1 at 2500# more power to you, that is your right... and you could set the max take off weight on your plane at 2500 and its perfectly legal.  The same as if you wanted to take a plane that was designed for a max of 1500 and only fly it at 1320 during phase 1.  If none of this info is in the log books (it has not been on the 3 I have purchased) then your golden to fly it at 1320 and no one can prove otherwise.

 

:BC:

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Posted

Another place where the gross weight would maybe be listed in paperwork, is when the plane is taken out of phase 1 flight.  Your are required to list in the log book stall speed and best rate of climb speed at gross (listed) weight.  This is written in the aircrafts log book, and you are stating  (certifying) that the plane is safe to operate at those speeds and weight.  Jim Chuk

I have been wondering about that for a long time - Say the Kit supplier lists the GW as 1400, and you fly Phase 1 at a max of 1300 GW, does the ramp checker go by your logbook, or what the kit supplier says the max GW for that model can be?

EDMO

the kit supplier is NOT the manufacture.  YOU the builder are the manufacture and you the BUILDER set the max weight.  This weight is only listed in the phase 1 log entries as there is not a space on the registration nor airworthiness for you to list a max weight for EAB.  It is kind of like putting a "ground only electrically adjustable prop" on your plane.  If you put one on and ever hit the switch in the air, then your plane can never again be used in the sport pilot category.  The only thing listed in my log is an ivo prop, it does not say how it is adjusted.  I would not even put the prop in the log book.  The less info you have in the log book, the less they have to try and hang you with... It is part of the don't ask don't tell policy that our over reaching government has driven us to.  I don't feel one bit bad about leaving out a detail here or there.

:BC:

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Posted

Can you please post up the document that shows it "certified" at 1400? 

 

:BC:

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Posted (edited)

Another place where the gross weight would maybe be listed in paperwork, is when the plane is taken out of phase 1 flight.  Your are required to list in the log book stall speed and best rate of climb speed at gross (listed) weight.  This is written in the aircrafts log book, and you are stating  (certifying) that the plane is safe to operate at those speeds and weight.  Jim Chuk

I have been wondering about that for a long time - Say the Kit supplier lists the GW as 1400, and you fly Phase 1 at a max of 1300 GW, does the ramp checker go by your logbook, or what the kit supplier says the max GW for that model can be?

EDMO

the kit supplier is NOT the manufacture.  YOU the builder are the manufacture and you the BUILDER set the max weight.  This weight is only listed in the phase 1 log entries as there is not a space on the registration nor airworthiness for you to list a max weight for EAB.  It is kind of like putting a "ground only electrically adjustable prop" on your plane.  If you put one on and ever hit the switch in the air, then your plane can never again be used in the sport pilot category.  The only thing listed in my log is an ivo prop, it does not say how it is adjusted.  I would not even put the prop in the log book.  The less info you have in the log book, the less they have to try and hang you with... It is part of the don't ask don't tell policy that our over reaching government has driven us to.  I don't feel one bit bad about leaving out a detail here or there.

:BC:

That's what my IA used to tell me:  "If it isn't logged, it never happened"!

I thought you had to keep a separate logbook for each airframe, engine and prop?

EDMO

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

Can you re-register it as a newly built aircraft with a different serial number at 1320 lbs.?  You'd have to get another certificate of airworthiness and go through the mandatory flyoff period again but it would basically be a different aircraft.

 

I'm not sure of the legality of this but I know people that have done it.

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Posted (edited)

Can you re-register it as a newly built aircraft with a different serial number at 1320 lbs.?  You'd have to get another certificate of airworthiness and go through the mandatory flyoff period again but it would basically be a different aircraft.

 

I'm not sure of the legality of this but I know people that have done it.

If you have a builder's book of photos and maybe a builder's logbook, and scrap the current plane - it could be done - and probably has been done - not sure about how legal - Guess "Legal" is what you can get by with?  And, what about the bill of sale you need for the kit that has a serial number on it, which Kitfox stamps on the airframe????

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

If you do not have a private ticket but have no medical issues, you can relatively quickly get a Recreational ticket. That's what I did. I was a student pilot getting re signed off every 90 days for a year and a half in my MKIV waiting for Sport pilot to emerge. I could have cared less about a private ticket at the time. Well Sport Pilot did not happen and I got sick of waiting.  Since the Rec ticket didn't require any hood time, I could go thru the whole license process in my MKIV. I went ahead and studied and took the rec written test (as well as the private test same day) and the next weekend took my check ride in my MKIV and got the rec ticket. Over the next two years I slowly built some 172 hood time and finished my private just because...... not because I needed to. So you could do something like that. 

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Posted

The $10 package should have a copy of the weight and balance information. 

This is the 1320 pound smoking gun. 

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Posted

The other gotcha is in the event of an accident.  You will have all of the AROW info in the plane and if you are over weight or have w/b outside the LSA regs, gotcha. 

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Posted

The $10 package should have a copy of the weight and balance information. 

This is the 1320 pound smoking gun. 

In my experience there is seldom a w&b with the records CD.  I don't know why this is.  While it is a required document in the airplane, along with the operating limitations, I'm not sure it gets filed with FAA.  Like the logbooks, which are not required to be filed with FAA, it's just an aircraft record.  Operating limits may not be either.  I dunno. 

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Posted

Can you re-register it as a newly built aircraft with a different serial number at 1320 lbs.?  You'd have to get another certificate of airworthiness and go through the mandatory flyoff period again but it would basically be a different aircraft.

 

I'm not sure of the legality of this but I know people that have done it.

If you have a builder's book of photos and maybe a builder's logbook, and scrap the current plane - it could be done - and probably has been done - not sure about how legal - Guess "Legal" is what you can get by with?  And, what about the bill of sale you need for the kit that has a serial number on it, which Kitfox stamps on the airframe????

EDMO

It gets "assembled from spare parts" and you assign your own serial number.

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Posted (edited)

Assembling from parts depends greatly on the inspector involved. 

They may want a build log, photos, receipts, etc, etc.  You are gambling on having an unregisterable paper weight. 

Any of the taxes you have paid are forfeit.  You may need to pay additional taxes depending on the state you are in.  On and on. 

I did extensive research on this with the mangy. 

Edited by Av8r3400
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Posted

Moderator:  can we please combine these threads?

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Posted

Moderator:  can we please combine these threads?

done.  Thanks for the heads up, I didn't notice 2 threads with the same title.

 

:BC:

 

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