switching to nosedragger

21 posts in this topic

Posted

Hello,

My name is Bill Poore and I live in Payson AZ.  I just finished my Avid Mark 4 STOL and am doing flight testing.  It is a taildragger and my landings have been scary.  Am thinking I will change to tricycle gear.  Does anyone have detailed drawings from a builders manual to accomplish this ?

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Posted

The MK IV manual is posted on line here.  you can download it and print it out.

How your TD is set up can really affect if its a pussy cat or a tiger on the ground.  Any more details on your plane?  Current set up, current tailwheel, springs used, main landing gear and tire size etc.  Pics of your plane is always welcome here!

 

:BC:

 

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Posted

Bill,

welcome to the clan! Ditto what Leni said.  My Avid had the nose wheel on it and I removed it for the taildragger. No, I don't have the nose wheel assembly, somebody already got it. The Avid flies funny with that wheel out front.  Avid td's aren't impossible to handle, but they need to be set up properly and you to have good training.  A champ or the like is good tailwheel training, but the Avid is a lot quicker reacting. There are a couple of guys out your direction that might be able to help. Good luck, Bryce

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Posted

One other thing, you can't just use the taildragger main gear mounted in the back locations to convert to a nosewheel set up.  The main gear is different, one to the other.   These planes are a little bit of a handful, more so on blacktop.  They are better on grass, it's more forgiving.   Check your toe in on the mains.  One wheel (or both) may be out of line.   That will make the plane squirley as well.   Jim Chuk

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Posted (edited)

Bill,

There is nothing wrong with using a nosegear on these planes.  Parts for them are getting scarce.  There are a few of us who like the nosegear better.   It makes landings more comfortable for non-taildragger pilots and those of us who just don't like to fight the physics of having the CG behind the landing gear.   Pilots who have been flying the larger factory taildraggers are usually not ready to fly the kit planes without some instruction and practice.

 I agree with what the TD guys said above - TDs are happier on grass.  If you give more details about your gear, like what tires, kind of tailwheel and spring you have, they can probably give you some good suggestions about how to make it easier to control.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Check your tire pressure and toe. How many wraps did you do on the bungee gear? What type of tail wheel springs? Compression or tension? Hard rubber tire Maule TW? When is the last time you had any TW instruction? Doing the conversion is a pretty drastic step when you already have a flying plane. Adds weight and drag too. Tell us some details on your set up and post some pictures before you give up on a proven set up. 

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Posted

Thank You guys for all the posts.  There is much more to this story.  I have 1700 flying hours.  About 1400 of those hours are in taildragger.  I bought this Avid in 2010 as a project and just finished it a few days ago.  I finished it last July and got Faa signoff but did not like how it handled on the ground.  Found out it had massive toe-in.  Decided to install grove gear.  Then found I needed new wheels tires and brakes.  Went with Matco and foolishly bought the large 21" tires.  Also i am flying it on asphalt.   I am going to order small tires on Monday.  I have a trailer and have found a dirt strip not far away.  I added very strong springs to the Matco tailwheel so I could steer better while taxiing.  I would welcome any imput from you tailwheel experts on the good and bad of that move ?  The springs are so strong the tailwheel will not breakaway.  Also the CG is very forward, still in the envelope but near the forward end.

I will get some pictures and post them.

 

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Posted

BTW, forgot to mention, My Avid has a Raven Redrive G10 engine with turbo, and it is overweight.  weighs 710 #.  Gets off the ground pretty quick but climb is slow.  Payson is 5,000 feet.

Bill

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Posted

Are you using the ATV wheels and tires or 21" aircraft tires?  I've been running the 21" aircraft tires on Grove gear (6" Grove wheels and brakes) for several years and they work fine.  That isn't your issue, imo. 

I believe you need to look at your rudder pedal and tail wheel rigging.   Do you have the steel 3/4" diameter axles or do you have the larger aluminum axles on your Grove gear?

What is your landing technique?

At 710#, that is a little heavy, but should still work okay. 

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Posted

 Found out it had massive toe-in

 

If that won't make it scary, nothing will.  I would start by fixing this.

Forward CG is not an issue for ground handling. I doubt that you would need mondo springs if you got the tow in fixed. Got a big pipe wrench?

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Posted

Grove sells tapered shims to adjust for toe in I believe.  Jim Chuk

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Posted

If its nose heavy you will be landing and taking off at higher speeds and all around flight performance suffers, not to mention being light on the tail wheel.  Add some lead divers weights to the tail wheel spring to bring the CG back to around 16" and tell me that it does not make a completely different and better airplane out of it!  If you like it at 16" you will love it at 18"!

Folks, It seems like he had massive toe in on the stock gear so he went to grove to take care of that issue...

:BC:

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Posted

I am going to attempt posting some pix.  Here goes !!

Is there a way to talk personally to someone who is posting on this site?  I very much would like to converse with Leonard Perry.  This is regarding moving the CG to 16 or 18.

Bill

Avid 005.jpg

Avid 007.jpg

Avid 008.jpg

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Posted

Looking good.  I just sent you a PM with my contact info.

 

:BC:

 

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Posted

Why is there only one chain on the tail wheel?  Assume that was during installation. 

Matco tailwheel likes a little slack. 

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Posted

That missing chain was the only damage during my ground loop incident.  I lost control shortly after touchdown, departed the runway into the grass, bounced 3 times, ended up on the taxiway 100 feet away heading the opposite direction !!  I missed the ILS lights by 30 feet !!

Bill

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Posted (edited)

In terms of desquirrelifying my own avid, I did these things.

On my matco tail wheel I run compresson springs a bit loose with weight on the tail as well as then having a light thin tension spring run up the center of the compression spring to keep the steering arms under constant tension so the tail wheel can't come unlocked inadvertently.  

Pivot bolt geometry of the tail wheel can/will have an impact on the handling of the aircraft on landing and deceleration. Positive caster steers easier but is typically more squirrely than neutral or negative caster. Ran positive caster for a long time on my plane and because of it learned to land/ taxi using brakes only for directional control. For me the best rule of thumb became to use the brakes to steer the plane in a straight line, use the steerable tail wheel only when you need to turn the aircraft. 

The most important thing I did was rework the toe brakes on my plane so I could be confident I had full effective control in taxi and landing. Joey's thread Gocart to matco brakes covers that change up.  

Edited by saskavid
wrong word
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Posted

This is what i will do today: 1)  install new lighter springs on Matco tailwheel ( strongest ones Matco sells).  I will leave them slightly loose.  2) I have a battery box at very rear of plane.  I will do calculation to see if moving the battery to that box gives me about 16" aft.  if that does not work out I will buy some divers weights and put them in box to get to 16".  3) add 7.5 gallons of fuel per side which will move cg aft a little.  4)  see about using the grass strip between runway and taxiway for landing.  5)After i get the cg where I want it i will do some fast taxi to see how it performs.

There is a gravel strip about 30 miles away.  Think i will go there and do a bunch of landings.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Bill,  Some say that removing the cam from the Matco helps - I have no experience with the Matco tailwheels.   IMO, and also Jim Chuk's statement,  a tail-low wheel landing gives better control than a 3-pointer.   Both Kitfox and Avid caution against doing fast taxi - Guess you have to know your own limitations on that?   I decided to go back to a nose-dragger a long time ago - still need to finish it.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Hi Ed,  What statement of mine were you referring to?  I pretty much always try for a 3 pointer.  I figure the slower I'm going when I touch down, the better.  Jim Chuk

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Posted (edited)

Hi Ed,  What statement of mine were you referring to?  I pretty much always try for a 3 pointer.  I figure the slower I'm going when I touch down, the better.  Jim Chuk

Jim,  Sorry if I misquoted you - remembered reading that from someone, and thought it was you.  Anyway, that is my thoughts - 9 times out of 10 here we have crosswinds, and I feel more comfortable on 2 wheels with low tail until it slows down, and easier to add power to get you out of a situation.  Note:  I was thinking more about concrete landings.  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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