Gross weight revisited (sigh)

[flattie45 17]

Sorry to bring this up again. I've looked at the posts relating to gross weight and found it very interesting. I too assumed that it is established somewhere, but that's only because I didn't bother to look anything up in regards to gross weight. I just heard hearsay and left it at that. Granted, I hadn't been through the process since the aircraft that I own have already been built.

I am a member of the Searey owners forum and posted there on the subject of gross weight. I had the usual replies of where GW is listed. Then one member finds FAA Order 8130.2dc3, which is actually canceled. But I look and find Order 8130.2f, which is valid. It's title is Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products. Chapter 4 Section 9 states:

"f. Weight and Balance.

(1) Before certification, the amateur builder should accurately weigh the aircraft in accordance with established weight and balance procedures to determine the aircraft’s empty, gross, and most forward and aft CG location, including the weight and balance for the initial flight tests in order to help reduce stall, spin, and other control-related accidents."

I am aware that the gross weight is not actually put down on any application, but the Order does state that the gross weight be determined. So, does this mean that one could change the gross weight by simply producing a new W&B form? I am curious to hear thoughts on this.

If people want I can copy and paste the discussion from the Searey site. Some of it is funny how people will make statements without looking at their own documents. Anyway, I am interested in what people have to think about this.

-Nate

[flattie45 17]

Sorry to bring this up again. I've looked at the posts relating to gross weight and found it very interesting. I too assumed that it is established somewhere, but that's only because I didn't bother to look anything up in regards to gross weight. I just heard hearsay and left it at that. Granted, I hadn't been through the process since the aircraft that I own have already been built.

I am a member of the Searey owners forum and posted there on the subject of gross weight. I had the usual replies of where GW is listed. Then one member finds FAA Order 8130.2dc3, which is actually canceled. But I look and find Order 8130.2f, which is valid. It's title is Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products. Chapter 4 Section 9 states:

"f. Weight and Balance.

(1) Before certification, the amateur builder should accurately weigh the aircraft in accordance with established weight and balance procedures to determine the aircraft’s empty, gross, and most forward and aft CG location, including the weight and balance for the initial flight tests in order to help reduce stall, spin, and other control-related accidents."

I am aware that the gross weight is not actually put down on any application, but the Order does state that the gross weight be determined. So, does this mean that one could change the gross weight by simply producing a new W&B form? I am curious to hear thoughts on this.

If people want I can copy and paste the discussion from the Searey site. Some of it is funny how people will make statements without looking at their own documents. Anyway, I am interested in what people have to think about this.

-Nate

So I look up Order 8130.2f and the page it is listed on lists it as canceled, in big red letters. I'll continue looking for a document that isn't canceled. Assuming (there's that word I'm trying to stay away from) that such a document exists and the above excerpt is true, where does that leave us? I'd like to hear what people have to say.

-Nate

[akflyer 1427]

So I look up Order 8130.2f and the page it is listed on lists it as canceled, in big red letters. I'll continue looking for a document that isn't canceled. Assuming (there's that word I'm trying to stay away from) that such a document exists and the above excerpt is true, where does that leave us? I'd like to hear what people have to say.

-Nate

Oh boy.. I better send outt he bat signal and see if I can get Steve to weigh in on this again As best as I can determine, from all the references that Steve put up, and searching my own, as well as talking to the FAA inspector when he came down to issue my AW cert, there is no real place for a "gross" weight anywhere on the paperwork other than WB, and that can be whatever you want to put down. There is no standard for testing for Experimental AC at this time, hence no place on the applications etc, for a "gross" weight. Same as for LSA. There is not a gross weight requirement, but a "Maximum Take Off Weight" Two entirely different animals.

[flattie45 17]

I had sent Steve an email, but this was before I had looked at 8130-2F. I thought this whole issue of GW was great news, and that I'd post on the Searey site to help spread the message. I was hoping people would look up info, look at their documents, applications, whatever they have and say to themselves, "Sumbitch! It ain't here! These here experimentals have just gotten cooler!". Instead most people will post all day long without even looking at their documents/regulations. You would think they would all be for it. Puzzling, to say the least.

But there is still the 8130-2F. Granted, in and of itself it is not an FAR. It is an Order. What is an Order? Hell if I know, but I'll try to find out. And it says the builder SHOULD accurately weight the aircraft, not MUST. Is that splitting hairs? Who knows. Like you said Leni, I am curious what Steve (or any one else for that matter), has to say.

-Nate

Edit- Order 8130-2F Change 4 is current. Wording is the same in regards to gross weight.

Edited 22 Nov 2009 by Nate

[akflyer 1427]

I had sent Steve an email, but this was before I had looked at 8130-2F. I thought this whole issue of GW was great news, and that I'd post on the Searey site to help spread the message. I was hoping people would look up info, look at their documents, applications, whatever they have and say to themselves, "Sumbitch! It ain't here! These here experimentals have just gotten cooler!". Instead most people will post all day long without even looking at their documents/regulations. You would think they would all be for it. Puzzling, to say the least.

But there is still the 8130-2F. Granted, in and of itself it is not an FAR. It is an Order. What is an Order? Hell if I know, but I'll try to find out. And it says the builder SHOULD accurately weight the aircraft, not MUST. Is that splitting hairs? Who knows. Like you said Leni, I am curious what Steve (or any one else for that matter), has to say.

-Nate

I have sen all sides of the argument over on the kitfox list. The standard reply is... if you fly over gross weight you become a test pilot.... WTF do they think the first flights and phase one flight testing is? When I get the new engine in my plane, I will be a test pilot. No one has ever done it before that I know of, and the manufacture did not test out this engine so is it "stupid" for me to do so. NO. I know the risks, and am willing to take them. Will I be cautious and take steps to prevent being in a situation where I cant make a somewhat safe landing while I am doing the initial testing of this engine, you bet your sweet ass I will!

Back to the gross weight issue.... You fly up here, how many cubs or beavers, or otters are flown every day that are over gross.

At the end of the day, there is no place on anyones paperwork who is flying an experimental that that lists or shows a gross weight. Take my Avid for example. The gross weights on it from factory brochures range from 950-1200 pounds. Which one is actually correct? I ran with 1085 as that was what was on the sales brochure I got with the paperwork on the plane, but no where else is it mentioned. Not the build manual, not the paperwork that FAA has from original AW application to the paperwork I filed when I rebuilt it. During my rebuild, I beefed up the gear box, the strut carry through and the wing struts themselves. I have no doubt in my mind that I am safe to fly at over 1200#.

[flattie45 17]

I now have the pleasure of being edited on the Searey site. I'm pretty mild mannered but it's enough to piss me off

I was going to copy and paste the thread into a text document. I log on it it looked a little shorter. I can't remember which posts they had deleted, but I do remember three people stating GW being on the AW cert, and now only one person is on record. It is usually a good community over there. Of course, good editing is that which is never noticed. Do you think that they are watching my house?

Edit: I sent an email to one of the admins. He assured me that they didn't delete the posts. They have the power to, but all three must agree. The author is the only other person who can delete a post, and that will delete the replies to that specific post as well. I feel a little better now

-Nate

Edited 23 Nov 2009 by Nate

[akflyer 1427]

I now have the pleasure of being edited on the Searey site. I'm pretty mild mannered but it's enough to piss me off

I was going to copy and paste the thread into a text document. I log on it it looked a little shorter. I can't remember which posts they had deleted, but I do remember three people stating GW being on the AW cert, and now only one person is on record. It is usually a good community over there. Of course, good editing is that which is never noticed. Do you think that they are watching my house?

And that is why this site is here.. I wont take advertising money etc, so I dont give a shit about what is said about a particular design, as long as it is relatively factual! Unless a person is threatening to go to someones house and beat their ass, I wont mod a post (Laugh, I know of 3 times this has happened on a snowmobile forum I hang out on).

You need a Searey forum for rouge mouthy Searay owners

[84KF 4]

Sorry I'm late... The dog ate my homework..., somthing like that.

Before I comment I need to know how in what context the term "Gross Weight" is being used.....

In regards to LSA and Sport Pilot issues?

Or, in regards to the maximum flyng weight of an Experimental Amatuer Built Aircraft?

Both are myths...., but I digress.

[dholly 718]

---pullin' up a chair!---

[flattie45 17]

Hello 84KF. The discussion was about gross weight in general. The LSA aspect was not at issue. What regulatory weight does FAA Order 8130-2f Change 4 have?

-Nate

[84KF 4]

"f. Weight and Balance.

(1) Before certification, the amateur builder should accurately weigh the aircraft in accordance with established weight and balance procedures to determine the aircraft’s empty, gross, and most forward and aft CG location, including the weight and balance for the initial flight tests in order to help reduce stall, spin, and other control-related accidents."

OK..., let's dissect the above statement....

a) "Before certification...," (before you can legally fly the aircraft)

b) "the amateur builder should accurately weigh the aircraft in accordance with established weight and balance procedures...", (you're going to put the aircraft on scales)

c)"to determine the aircraft’s empty, gross, and most forward and aft CG location....", You will now have the empty weight of the aircraft, and some numbers to work with. You will be putting at least one person and some gas, make sure you stay within what ever C.G. envelope applies to the design at the most fwd loading situation, and aft loading situation.

The "gross weight" for any flight, now or in the future, is but the final loaded weight. Add more baggage, gross weight goes up, drain some gas..., gross weight goes down. We all know what gross weight is. It's the total weight at any time. But we have been brainwashed into thinking it's something like "MAXIMUM WEIGHT" as applied to Type Certificated aircraft.

You don't need stamp a "Gross Weight" on the Data Plate of an Experimental Amateur Built. Why??? Because it just dosn't matter!!!!! And just how the hell are you going to determine a "gross weight" (meaning "how much will this thing lift and still fly?) for an aircraft that hasn't even flown yet??

[flattie45 17]

Thank you Steve. It makes sense to me. As for others people, well, who knows. Care if I copy and paste your reply over on the Searey site? Maybe even make your email address available if people have questions? I think I'm done trying to convince them but I wanted one more chance to lay it all out. I thought I made a good attempt but I don't think many people got rid of their assumptions. Especially with the thread edited. The Searey site is a pretty good community and I haven't seen evidence of animosity or rifts between members. Anyway, thanks again for your input.

-Nate