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Buying project without logs

16 posts in this topic

Posted

I was looking at a project this weekend that seemed like a good deal, but after talking to him he mentioned he never kept any logs while building. I did some reading online and it sounds like this is a crucial step in getting an airworthiness certificate to operate the aircraft. This project has aluminum wings that are already closed up and have not been inspected according to the current owner. The airframe will be easier to inspect. 

What is the full process to get a project legally certified to fly?

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Posted

Make them up.. it's easy to just write down that you built wings according to factory specs and faa recommended practices.  take a few pics and call it good.  no reason for them to question if you built it or not.  if airworthiness or n numbers have never been applied for then make it yours and get the repairman certificate for it.  jus5 because some people choose to be overly anal with documentation, you could be equally as sloppy with a build log. 

:BC: 

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Posted

An amateur built aircraft can be built by many different people.  Some people keep better or more complete builder's logs than others.  As long as there is really no argument that at least 51 percent of the aircraft was built by one or more amateurs, the FAA should let it fly.  I would contact the local DAR that you intend to use for the aircraft inspection and get him involved right away.  After all, he is the one who will be signing it off in the end.  If he sees a problem right away, maybe it's a deal you should avoid.  I try to be honest in everything I do.  I don't have to have a good memory then.  I probably can remember what actually happened, but  can I remember everything  I told someone if it was a story??  Probably not.  I can't speak for others, but when I think I'm being fed a line of bs, I get peeved and tend to not be very helpful.  A friend of mine bought an Avid that was covered and painted out through the silver coat.  Guy passed away, no logs, or paperwork that the widow could find.  The DAR helped him and got it registered.  YMMV, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  JImChuk

PS  sorry Leni ;-)

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Posted (edited)

In addition to what Jim and Leni wrote, before or after going to DAR,  I would get a signed statement from the owner that he built certain parts of it, and go from there - take photos with you.   A pre-purchase inspection might be a good idea?  An Experimental airplane does not have to be inspected during the build, such as before covering, but never hurts.  Only one inspection is required when it is ready to fly, and they usually like at least about one hour of running time on the engine.   I think the EAA still has a builder's packet for members - of materials to guide you thru the process with forms and examples of the paperwork you have to submit before inspection.   It also includes a data plate and the decals you might want to use, making operating limitations, how to get N-number, which has to be on the plane before inspection.  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Just to sum up everyone's advice:

1. Talk to a DAR prior to buying

2. Have someone take a look at it prior to buying

3. The lack of logs are not a problem as long as he signs a statement saying he built at least 51%

Any other potential hurdles with a certification process that I may be missing?

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Posted

One other thing: He mentioned that he was filling out the paper to get an N number. Would it be easier if he skipped this and let me do it?

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Posted (edited)

One other thing: He mentioned that he was filling out the paper to get an N number. Would it be easier if he skipped this and let me do it?

Yes,  you do it if you are going to finish it, because the number would have his name attached?  You can choose your own N-number from a list the FAA says is availiable instead of letting them pick it.  He don't have to say 51% - just say what he did during the building or what he built.   If he don't have a build manual, can you buy one?  What plane is it?  He should have a bill of sale for when he bought it - was it a kit?  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Another consideration... Many states are financially strapped and turning over every stone in their desperate quest for income. NY is aggressively pursuing tax on E-AB kit sales, regardless of how old, and using the FAA registration database as the info source. Basically, they put out a mail blast to every registered aircraft owner they could not cross match a sales tax payment from saying they not only owed sales tax on the value stated on the FAA Form 8050, but also penalties and interest from the filing date. 5% tax is imposed on the purchase price or market value of aircraft registered in North Dakota. The tax applies whether the aircraft is purchased in North Dakota or outside the state. If you can't produce an original purchase reciept from the Kit manufacturer you will be taxed on the imputed value, which will likely be a lot more than you think it worth and the sale price from the previous owner will not matter. 

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Posted (edited)

If the DAR cannot give you an "OK" on it when you talk to him and show him papers and photos, then he needs to be the one to look at it before you buy it - not just "someone".  IMO -  and, the DAR may need to talk to the builder too. EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

After getting the certificate on my sonex I completely think that a person could get one for anything .He looked at the pitcures and had his wife guess how many there were.The certificate was already printed when he showed up.

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Posted

I couldn't talk to the DAR today, but did talk to the EAA chapter by the project. They were happy to go to his house and check it out sometime in the next 2 weeks and give me an opinion on the quality. I will try and talk to the DAR tomorrow hopefully. The owner of the project was excited to have an EAA member come over and check out his plane.

 

Thanks for the advice. 

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Posted

I am still wondering, What kind of plane is it?  EDMO

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Posted

Sorry. Sonerai

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Posted

Sorry. Sonerai

Thanks - The aluminum wings had me wondering - Never saw an Avid or Kitfox with aluminum wings - Yet....EDMO

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Posted

Sorry. Sonerai

Thanks - The aluminum wings had me wondering - Never saw an Avid or Kitfox with aluminum wings - Yet....EDMO

but if you would see one i bet it would be on this forum

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Posted (edited)

Actually, I had thought about being the first to do that, but Doug convinced me to use plywood for leading edge extensions -  Wood don't dent like aluminum.    You are right TJay!   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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