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Kitfox II vs III visual clues in kit form?

66 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Ed, I've owned two KF3's (863 & 1017), one 4-1050 (1017) and one 4-1200 (1901). The only one with any identifying mark was the 4-1050 with the S/N stamped on the center safety harness mounting tab. This was consistent with everything I read.

My KF2 markings were small and very plain under the paint - The KF3 numbers were larger and so very faint under the powdercoat that I had to look really close to find them.   I don't think these were put on by the owners - believe they were factory stamped under the finish.   Maybe they didn't stamp all of them, but that wouldn't sound right?   EDMO

I think you maybe crossed up some numbers above - you couldn't have a 3 and a 4 both SN 1017 - That's OK tho.

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Passing through Elko, should I stop at the Zipper engine shop?

Good thing about a KF-3, 80hp should be more than enough, right?

Would a big bore 104hp do some damage?

Uh oh, thread drift 

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Posted (edited)

Bigger is always better!  Altitude and Temperature (DA) increases the need.  The only limit is your bank account! 

Probably a dumb remark from a non-Rotax flyer, but, if you don't have a 80 hp, why not just buy the 100 hp and not worry about the Zipper kit?   EDMO

Passing through Elko, should I stop at the Zipper engine shop?

Good thing about a KF-3, 80hp should be more than enough, right?

Would a big bore 104hp do some damage?

Uh oh, thread drift 

 

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

The door shape on the yellow fuselage says it's a Kitfox 1.  The 2 had the other style of doors.  Also, I'll bet the yellow fuse is 36" wide at the top of the seat.  The 2 and later were 39.5" wide.  JImChuk

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Posted

The door shape on the yellow fuselage says it's a Kitfox 1.  The 2 had the other style of doors.  Also, I'll bet the yellow fuse is 36" wide at the top of the seat.  The 2 and later were 39.5" wide.  JImChuk

I agree.  EDMO

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Posted

Where should I be looking for corrosion on the kit?  Where are the hot spots?  Lower tubes on the fuselage?  Struts?  Spars?

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Posted (edited)

Where should I be looking for corrosion on the kit?  Where are the hot spots?  Lower tubes on the fuselage?  Struts?  Spars?

Has this kit ever been covered?  If not, and it has decent storage, there should be no corrosion.  Lower fuselage tubes (longerons) usually don't corrode if powder coated and not damaged or scraped.  Struts, unless coated good, and glued to wood fairings, can corrode.  Spars would only corrode if exposed to harsh chemicals or something was spilled on them, or in them, mouse shit or died,  birdshit?  If this is an unstarted kit, a good visual inspection should not show any corrosion.   I keep wondering about that data plate - they are not usually filled-in until the kit is finished building.   Are you sure this one has never been licensed?   No N-number?   Is there a builder's name on the plate?   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Not sure about any of that.  He says "unbuilt".  No availability to view tonight,  so it will be Monday or Tuesday when I go take a look.

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Posted

Not sure about any of that.  He says "unbuilt".  No availability to view tonight,  so it will be Monday or Tuesday when I go take a look.

Lots of us will be waiting for your report, and ready to give more answers than you need.   Good Luck,  EDMO

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Posted

Passing through Elko, should I stop at the Zipper engine shop?

Good thing about a KF-3, 80hp should be more than enough, right?

Would a big bore 104hp do some damage?

Uh oh, thread drift 

Watch your gross weight with a 4 stroke.  With my Model III, 582 and two 6 gallon tanks I am pretty much maxed out (max gross) with two adults and a full fuel load. 

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Posted (edited)

Holy crap, Larry.  What's your empty weight?  

Should be in the 450-500 range for a a III with a 582.   Which would give 550-600 useful.

Either that or you need to cut back on the cheeseburgers even worse than me and Doug...

Edited by Av8r3400

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Posted (edited)

Holy crap, Larry.  What's your empty weight?  

Should be in the 450-500 range for a a III with a 582.   Which would give 550-600 useful.

Either that or you need to cut back on the cheeseburgers even worse than me and Doug...

The FAA allows (demands?) that you use 170 lbs for pilot and passenger, so all the cheezeburgers after that don't count when you do your W/B and GW- Large folks get a break!  Only 12 gallons, 72 lbs of fuel LarryS....and you are at max with 582?    ;<)

EDMO  

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

My hope is to have a basic operating weight without "crew" of 550lbs with a 912.  So empty would need to be 530 to 540.  

I've read of some model 3's weighing in at 525lbs with a 912, so I think I'm realistic.

Weight and Safety are my two primary concerns.

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Posted

Omit the dual brakes

912 Without Slipper Clutch

Prince Prop

Minimal Instruments with IPad for Nav

No interior besides a seat cushion

No Lights 

Carbon Fiber and Titanium substitutions where I can

I think I can do it.

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Posted

Bigger is always better!  Altitude and Temperature (DA) increases the need.  The only limit is your bank account! 

Probably a dumb remark from a non-Rotax flyer, but, if you don't have a 80 hp, why not just buy the 100 hp and not worry about the Zipper kit?   EDMO

Passing through Elko, should I stop at the Zipper engine shop?

Good thing about a KF-3, 80hp should be more than enough, right?

Would a big bore 104hp do some damage?

Uh oh, thread drift 

 

i like the idea of the lower compression engine.  It's smoother on start-up and shut down eliminating the stress on the mounts.  Less chance of detonation. It also does not require a slipper clutch which saves weight.  Some have also reported that the big bore high torque outperforms the 912s or 912uls.  

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Posted

Bigger is always better!  Altitude and Temperature (DA) increases the need.  The only limit is your bank account! 

Probably a dumb remark from a non-Rotax flyer, but, if you don't have a 80 hp, why not just buy the 100 hp and not worry about the Zipper kit?   EDMO

Passing through Elko, should I stop at the Zipper engine shop?

Good thing about a KF-3, 80hp should be more than enough, right?

Would a big bore 104hp do some damage?

Uh oh, thread drift 

 

i like the idea of the lower compression engine.  It's smoother on start-up and shut down eliminating the stress on the mounts.  Less chance of detonation. It also does not require a slipper clutch which saves weight.  Some have also reported that the big bore high torque outperforms the 912s or 912uls.  

I thought the Zipper was higher compression?  Larry, Av8r3400 can probably give you good numbers for comparisons.  EDMO

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Posted (edited)

The standard Zipper is available in low, 9.5:1 and high 11:1 compression, 105 and 115 hp respectively.  (The crazy level kits are up to 135 hp with no turbo.)

Edited by Av8r3400

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Posted

I may have found another difference between the 2 and 3:  The vertical stab and rudder ribs are lined up on the model 3 photos, but the model 1 and 2 photos show the ribs are staggered.  Can anyone confirm?

 

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Posted

I may have found another difference between the 2 and 3:  The vertical stab and rudder ribs are lined up on the model 3 photos, but the model 1 and 2 photos show the ribs are staggered.  Can anyone confirm?

 

I don't have rudders connected to any fuselages right now.   EDMO

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Posted

I may have found another difference between the 2 and 3:  The vertical stab and rudder ribs are lined up on the model 3 photos, but the model 1 and 2 photos show the ribs are staggered.  Can anyone confirm?

 

good eye here is an old photo of mine, One thing I notice is the model 1 showen in the picture doesn't look like it has a 45 degree brace inside the vertical not sure why, that is, Maybe just the photo.

100_0812.JPG

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Posted

oh hell I think that is an early model 4, notice the two wing ribs hanging right behind the photo of the red one, Lucky Bastard, Gotta say nice find,

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Posted

Definitely Riblett airfoil but 99% certain the fuse is a 3. Old style mixer cluster behind the seat and the tailspring mount and tubing lattice don't look like a 4-1050. You can zoom in and see the difference in the classified ad I posted a couple months ago, shows bare 3 and 4-1050 fuselages side by side. 

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Posted (edited)

My empty weight is 570 lbs with a 582, however I have added bush gear, larger tail-wheel, larger (rudder, vertical stab & elevator), elevator trim, PVC strut fairings and wide body kit.  Avg Model III empty weight is listed as 550 lbs per the Kitfox Pilots Guide (by Ed Downs).  Doug do you recall the empty weight of your Model III?

Edited by LSaupe

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Posted

Holy crap, Larry.  What's your empty weight?  

Should be in the 450-500 range for a a III with a 582.   Which would give 550-600 useful.

Either that or you need to cut back on the cheeseburgers even worse than me and Doug...

The FAA allows (demands?) that you use 170 lbs for pilot and passenger, so all the cheezeburgers after that don't count when you do your W/B and GW- Large folks get a break!  Only 12 gallons, 72 lbs of fuel LarryS....and you are at max with 582?    ;<)

EDMO  

Yes, but need to use real weight for actual flying.  Max is max right?  570 lbs empty, plus 200 lbs each person (person plus clothes and shoes, headset etc), plus 12 gallons fuel puts us as 1042.  My point is that I have also considered a 912 conversion but just don't have the slop in weight to do it realistically.  Would love 24 gallons of fuel vice the 12 but just not enough weight gap there to make it practical (plus I do like to have "some" safety factor on weight and not always operating at the edge of things).

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Posted (edited)

I know the Model III had larger tail surfaces than the II.  Didnt they also go from three rudder mount points to four from II to III?

Edited by LSaupe

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