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Brought new plane home, find out engine is hatched...

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Posted (edited)

Yeah I know... your first instinct will say "buyer beware", but this is a little different. 

Short story:  Look over airplane and logs, go up with owner on test flight, all seems good. Pay, load up, trailer home.  Decide to do an oil change on the Subaru nsi e81, pull oil filter......  find big chunks of metal on filter input ports (will pos pics tomorrow).

Head hangs low... close my eyes and shake my head.

Plan to call seller this week.

Question is:  How would you treat a buyer if he found that on something you sold.   He seemed like a really honest guy, and I am sure he had no knowledge of the problem.

Keep in mind that I never even started up the motor.  Didn't even turn it over once!  In my mind it would be a totally different deal if I was running it or flying it around  (even a few hours).  Then it would be difficult to determine under who's watch the damage occured.

What do you guys think?

Edited by MN Kitfox 2

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Posted

As sad as this story makes me it's a tough position for both of you. As part of a pre-buy inspection an oil change should be completed. I totally feel for you though, I've been taken by so many people in aviation it makes me seriously wonder about pilots in general. This group is always a breath of fresh air for that reason.

Personally, I don't think a Subaru is worth $4,000, at least not at current market value. You can find them with very low time for half of that. I have three sitting in running condition right now and I'd sell them for $2,000 with no redrive but the market isn't there for them at that price. They are also very inexpensive to rebuild with new parts, that is if there is no damage to the actual engine case, which I'd doubt. You should be able to easily purchase parts and have one back together in a few days for less than $1,500 and then you'd actually know what you have as well.

Maybe the seller is a really good guy and you can get something back from him if you let him know about the damage. I don't know how I'd take it if a buyer came back to me and asked for money the first time he approached the situation though. Just a thought.

Let us know how this works out. Hope things go well.

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Posted (edited)

Believe that filter is on the pressure side of oil pump - the pump is the first place I would be looking at for some failure - maybe nothing got into the engine?  Most times with a factory plane, an annual is done before or during sale, and that includes oil & filter change.  Sorry for your problems.  Hoping that you and the seller can work something out.

I am hoping that your problem is small - but in the case it is a disaster, I have a spare engine in the shed with 31K actual miles on it that I could sell fairly cheap.  EDMO

Do you know if the NSI has hydraulic or solid lifters?

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

Colorado component re builders has there aviation build longblock 2600 shipped free .I have 400 hrs on the one I got from them 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks guys.  

Yeah, it's a tough one.  It will depend a lot on what kind of guy the seller is!  Best argument I can make to him is simply "how would you feel if you were in my shoes".  I know that I would feel responsible to help in a reasonable way....  we'll see if he feels the same.

As far as rebuilding the soob, i wish i could have flown it a bit to see how well it worked!!  I likely would go through it it if was putting out the nsi promised 118hp, but i am unsure after talking with may dad who rode along for the short test flight.  And finding other nsi components to keep it running over the long haul gives me pause as well.

Edited by MN Kitfox 2

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Posted

Maybe overhaul this engine, or get it overhauled, would be the quickest way to get it back in the air.  Once it's flying, you can always look for or set up a different engine for the plane.  Bummer about finding out the engine has issues like you did.  At least it didn't puke out while up in flight.  Any clues in the log books?  When was the last log book entry for an oil change?  JImChuk

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Posted (edited)

Logbook just shows regular changes done by owner.  Nothing specified about any f.o.d. or filter inspections.

You guys are right, for sure it would be quickest and cheapest to long block it or diy overhaul.  From what I've seen so far it looks like signs of early failure (although I wonder what bigger pieces might be "grinding away" on the other side of the oil pump).

Below is a crappy pic showing two chunks of something wedged in the two holes upper and left of the "6c" stamp.  I will bring the filter out to the fbo here and have them pull it apart and do a more detailed inspection.

It just wish I would have gotten to fly it a bit, and gain some of the "sooby love" that others speak of who have the engine.

But without that warm fuzzy I look at that motor like it's the guy that wants to take my daughter out on her first date... and now that i look closer i see he's got tattoos with bad insignias (like an oil filter with metal chunks in it)

Might be a great guy after a little fixing.... maybe.... but do I REALLY want to go down that road!

:banghead:

 

41362.jpeg

Edited by MN Kitfox 2

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Posted

Something to consider. I used to work auto parts and have seen filters come off the line like this. It is the punched out holes you see. I realize the picture isn't the best and it may be engine fod but it may not even be an engine issue. 

Personally if you're that worried about it send off the pieces to have them analyzed, it's not that expensive and they can tell you what component it may be from. Then do a quick tear down of the engine in a clean room. If there isn't any sign of internal damage and the bearings are good, you can put it back together. It wouldn't cost much for a complete engine gasket set and you'll have a much better piece of mind knowing exactly what is inside the case after that. The tattoos on the date might just wash off or be the old cracker jack lick and stick kind...you never know. 

I realize I'm a little optimistic but it's beats giving up before you really know what is going on. 

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Posted (edited)

I have to agree with Lostman - I was a toolmaker/machinist for most of my life - I have seen fod like this when the punch and die got dull or broken - this could be fod from punching the holes in the filter, or even from a filter punched prior to this one, but it could also be from part of the engine.   The analysis is cheap and might save you some $$$.  It would be great if you could send in the rear of the filter with the analysis.  You could always ask.  You might be able to tell if those pieces are from the filter if you remove them.

I guess a brave, or foolish, person would pull the pan, drain the oil and check it, change the filter and run the engine, then check the filter and have an analysis done on that one - but why not have this filter checked first?

Too bad that you never got to fly this solo because you would have noticed a huge difference in performance.  An IVO-IFA will make it perform a lot better - just ask the guys who have changed their WD to the IFA.  I wish I could have gotten the 118 hp NSI instead of a belt-drive, lower hp, Soob.

EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted (edited)

.... I wish I could have gotten the 118 hp NSI instead of a belt-drive, lower hp, Soob.

EDMO

I might be the guy to help you fulfill that wish Ed!

:):)

And the local aero shop has the filter now, I'll have them check for the "hanging chad" (filter punch blanks) possibility.

Edited by MN Kitfox 2
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Posted

.... I wish I could have gotten the 118 hp NSI instead of a belt-drive, lower hp, Soob.

EDMO

I might be the guy to help you fulfill that wish Ed!

:):)

Maybe I should have added:  Back before I retired, when I was working, not married, and had more money!  Ha!  EDMO

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Posted

Wouldn't take much money at this point in time!!:lmao:

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Posted (edited)

I am really hoping that you get some better news about the fod - I would like to hear that you are enjoying the bird on floats - You have a lot of lakes there.   I have to be completely honest tho - I got my engine from a guy in Canada who had a Pelican Club, and he said that the 90-100? hp Soob was just too heavy for 2 pilots when he put it on floats - he bought a 100hp 912.    I don't know what the Pelican Club weighs empty, but GW is 1400.... Is your bird an Avid, or a bigger-winged Kitfox?  More wing is better for floats, IMO...  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

I knew a guy up on Lake Vermillion that had an Avid plus on floats.  He had a EA81 Subaru also.  It was pretty well a single person plane.  Think the gross weight was 1250 on the plus if my memory is correct.   What is the empty weight of your Kitfox 5?  JImChuk

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Posted (edited)

I knew a guy up on Lake Vermillion that had an Avid plus on floats.  He had a EA81 Subaru also.  It was pretty well a single person plane.  Think the gross weight was 1250 on the plus if my memory is correct.   What is the empty weight of your Kitfox 5?  JImChuk

Jim,  He told me the papers said KF5 EW was 680 with short wings GW listed at 1200, but planned to extend wings and increase GW.  I mentioned the 1320 rule for Sport Pilot resale, plus additional for floats.   Ed

Now before Leni and Doug load their guns to shoot the messenger over GW, MTOW, etc., just remember that the FAA says that if an aircraft has EVER been recorded as more than 1320 lbs GW (SEL) it cannot EVER be flown by a Sport Pilot, or however it is written. 

How you deal with that rule is up to you.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Well I think it makes sense to try to keep it within the light sport weight if possible even if you are a private pilot and aren't really worried about having to fly light sport.  At 680 lbs,  if you stay with the 1320 lbs for gross weight, you have 640 lbs left for usable load.  With 26 gals. of fuel, you still have 484 lbs left for passengers and baggage.  How often will you ever be that heavy?  To each his own, but if I could keep it sport pilot eligible, I would.  JImChuk

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Posted

That's pretty simple to deal with.. you don't write a number down larger than 1320... who cares what you actually haul with it.  same on the prop.  never write down more than  a ground adjustable lol.

:BC:

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Posted

I'm guessing that when you see a speed limit sign on a nice open road that says 55 you may bump it up to 60 or 65 lol

 

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Posted

I'm in agreement with others. Looking at the pieces in the filter doesn't seem like engine coming apart inside. Bearing failure looks like little flat pieces and filings. Not a couple large pieces. Cut the filter open(use a sharp knife to not make filings) and cut out a couple inch section of the paper pleated medium, put that in a vice and squeeze all the oil out. Then open the pleats and look closely at the fold areas. A few tiny pin head size pieces of metal would not be alarming. Put another filter on, get a mechanical oil pressure gage and run in up. Oil pressure should hold through low rpm to high. Warm it right up. Check the compression. After a good run up, check the new filter again by cutting it apart.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for all the input guys! 

Good advice.

And for an Update:  

Yesterday i pulled the oil pan and drained the remote reservoir (retaining old oil for analysis if necessary).

There were absolutely NO other visible objects in the oil or the pan.  Next I will run a magnet down in the remote oil reservoir and see if anything is down there (those two chunks in the picture were magnetic).  I will also put the dial caliper on those chunks and compare that to the filter wall thickness where the holes were punched.  They seem similar... but they are not perfect punch blanks either.

I will still send the untouched filter and those two chunks to my a&p to open up and inspect.  I would rather have another set of eyes look it over.  He is out in deer camp now, so I'll get that done next week.

So for now, things are looking promising.

Edited by MN Kitfox 2

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Posted (edited)

Wash the pan with a quart of gasoline and put the residue into a clean plastic container - then use the magnet to see if there are particles.  Ed

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

You beat me to it. I was thinking this morning about this and was about to ask if you'd pulled the oil pan yet. I certainly would do that and send some oil in for analysis. Plus do what EDMO said. At the very least you'll see if there are more particulate matter down in the pan. 

Sounds like you're one the right track. Sure hope this all comes out better than you thought to start with. 

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Posted

Aw.....  Crap!

Went fishing in the remote oil reservoir with a telescoping magnet (my soob is a dry sump system).

Found some more junk.   All appears to be part of the same component.  Strange but the largest curved black piece appears to be painted!

The other pieces are malformed quite a bit... like they've been crunching around awhile. 

I can't see any way around a full tear down and inspect.  I gotta know what is going on in there.

Wish it were an airboat, then I'd just run the hell out of it and see what happens!

 

 

1479088160002-312907533.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Have you ever walked home pulling an airboat?  Teardown is the way to go.  I would start with redrive.  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

That sucks! I'm curious as to what component it is that shrapneled out like that. It doesn't quite look like a bearing though. It seems you need a metallurgist to tell you what they are from. Sorry to hear it's rebuild time. If I were in your shoes I still think I'd rebuild versus buying another engine. At least when it's done you'll know exactly what you have. 

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