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Looking for N618GZ info

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Posted

Gents,

Looking for information regarding N618GZ "Tweety Bird" STOL Kitfox 3 built and owned by Tom Tschantz.

http://www.ashleyncoffey.com/182-2/

The most important information I would like is the aircraft's empty weight.

Thanks in advance!

That model 3 is still for sale in Reno, and I'm circling back to see if a 912 with a 500lb useful is possible.

-Shua

 

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Posted

Don't know anything about this plane, but I know an Avid MK IV is very similar to a Kitfox 3.  The two MK IVs I've owned weighed 585 lbs.  One had a Rotax 582, the other a Jabiru.   A 912 installation would be heavier than either of these engines.  Kitfox 3 has a 1050 gross weight,  I would think it would be hard to meet a 500 lb useable load.  Is there something on the Kitfox 3 that limits it to that weight?  Why is the Avid 1150 or 1200 gross weight?  Could that or those limiting factors be strengthened to raise the gross weight on the Kitfox some?  You can sort of use whatever gross weight you want,  although that gross weight is supposed to be proven safe in the phase one flight test time.  It can also be raised at a future time by flight testing and proving it's safe.  To bad he didn't say the empty weight of the plane in the video.  JImChuk

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Posted (edited)

Don't know anything about this plane, but I know an Avid MK IV is very similar to a Kitfox 3.  The two MK IVs I've owned weighed 585 lbs.  One had a Rotax 582, the other a Jabiru.   A 912 installation would be heavier than either of these engines.  Kitfox 3 has a 1050 gross weight,  I would think it would be hard to meet a 500 lb useable load.  Is there something on the Kitfox 3 that limits it to that weight?  Why is the Avid 1150 or 1200 gross weight?  Could that or those limiting factors be strengthened to raise the gross weight on the Kitfox some?  You can sort of use whatever gross weight you want,  although that gross weight is supposed to be proven safe in the phase one flight test time.  It can also be raised at a future time by flight testing and proving it's safe.  To bad he didn't say the empty weight of the plane in the video.  JImChuk

These planes are designed with a huge safety factor - Just look at the weights they have put on the wings for testing.  I don't think an extra 50 or 150 lbs is going to break them.  Their weakest part is probably the longerons that attach the landing gear - they don't like rough landings.  The Kitfox 5 1500GW has the same wing as the Kitfox 4 1050, but the longerons are larger on the KF5.   The Airdale 1400 GW uses the same HH wing as the Mk IV 1200 Gw.  The Avid Magnum 1700 GW uses the same 1/4" diameter bolt to attach the struts to the wings as the Kitfox 1 850 GW.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Don't know anything about this plane, but I know an Avid MK IV is very similar to a Kitfox 3.  The two MK IVs I've owned weighed 585 lbs.  One had a Rotax 582, the other a Jabiru.   A 912 installation would be heavier than either of these engines.  Kitfox 3 has a 1050 gross weight,  I would think it would be hard to meet a 500 lb useable load.  Is there something on the Kitfox 3 that limits it to that weight?  Why is the Avid 1150 or 1200 gross weight?  Could that or those limiting factors be strengthened to raise the gross weight on the Kitfox some?  You can sort of use whatever gross weight you want,  although that gross weight is supposed to be proven safe in the phase one flight test time.  It can also be raised at a future time by flight testing and proving it's safe.  To bad he didn't say the empty weight of the plane in the video.  JImChuk

What did you think of the Jabiru?

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Posted

I flew the Jabiru for over 400 hrs in my Avid.  I liked the engine/airplane combination.  Descent power and fuel economy.  Better cruise than the 582.  I think a 912 would be better, but more weight and $.  JImChuk

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Posted

Reported as 533lbs empty on Tweety Bird with a 912ULS.  Not bad.  Climb rate/angle must be amazing!

What's a Jabiru 2200 installation, 40lbs, 50lbs, (or?) lighter than a 912?

So lets say 490lbs with a Jab in the same cowless, open aft fuselage configuration, right?  Can a Jab hang out in free air with a cooling plenum?

So lets say I stick a cowl on it and cover the aft fuselage.   That can't possibly weigh more than 60lbs, right?

Voilá! 550lb KF-3 with a four stroke.  

Maybe use the Model 4 ribs that he has and improve the speed of the little frankin-plane by 10mph to take even more advantage of the high RPM Jabiru.

Now the near impossible part:  finding a low to mid time 2200 jab at a decent price...

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

What are "usual" prices for good low-time 2200 Jabs?  What is weight of 2200?   How much heavier is, or what is weight and hp of, the 3300 Jab?   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted (edited)

Jabiru 2200 flying weight is about 125 lbs, and the 3300 is about 175 lbs.  They run jabirus in lots of planes without cowlings.  Mostly pushers, which don't usually have a cowl anyway.  No reason why it couldn't be ran without a cowl in a Kitfox that I can see.  You would have to make things a bit more secure so they wouldn't flap around in the breeze though.  One thing though, the Jabiru will never take off and climb out like a 912.  Smaller prop at higher RPMs are better for high speed planes, not so good for STOL work.  JImChuk

PS  reread some of the previous posts, and so I'm adding more info.  Ed,  the 3300 Jabiru is supposed to produce 120 HP.  The Jabiru engines don't use a cooling plenum.  They have fiberglass ducts that enclose the tops of the cylinders to direct the cooling air.  Here is a picture of a plane with the top cowl removed.  (not mine)

2004_0111_142827AA.jpg

2004_0111_142753AA.jpg

Edited by 1avidflyer

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Posted

Jim,  Has anyone ever put a psru on the Jabs?  Sounds to me like they could use one.   EDMO

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Posted

You would have the same problem they have with a redrive VW, keeping the already problematic heads cool.

Add the weight of a redrive and the weight of Rotec liquid cooled heads and you have 1.5+ times the weight of a 912 and as a bonus, cobbled together reliability.  Sounds like a winner to me...

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Posted

Ed,  I don't know of anyone putting a redrive on a Jabiru.  JImChuk

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Posted

yeh,  guess Allison 250 or the Garrett PT6 is engine to go with - unfortunately, my budget wont allow that, or a Rotax!  :BC:  EDMO

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Posted

Just had a buddy of mine put a used 912UL on his plane, $4500.

These engines are out there.  You just have to open your eyes and EARS to people in the know in your neighborhood.

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Posted (edited)

Just had a buddy of mine put a used 912UL on his plane, $4500.

These engines are out there.  You just have to open your eyes and EARS to people in the know in your neighborhood.

I have an engine, mount and prop that will do - My build is too complete to make a major change now anyway - the next owner can change it if he wants to.  Not everyone is a Rotax fan.  I am not building a show-plane or trying to best someone's performance.    Someone else may get to cover, or cover and paint this bird before they fly it.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Speaking of alternate engines. Is anyone using a Hirth in this group? I was talking to a Hirth and Rotax repair/salesman just a couple days ago. The Hirth has a longer TBO for about the same weight/power as the 912 but the rebuild is also about 1/4 the price. Not to mention only about 5/8th the cost up front. If I was in the market for a brand new engine I sure would consider it. He also said that the fuel burn of the Hirth is 60% of the equivalent engine from Rotax. This is a man that makes his living selling and repairing both and has been since 2002. 

It seems like I remember someone saying something about it earlier but not sure if they were just talking about it or saying they'd installed one. Guess it's time to use the search function. 

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Posted

A friend of mine has a 55 HP Hirth in his Avid A model.  He used to fly a gyrocopter.  Had a 503 on it.  Thought the Hirth would be better so he sold the rotax and put the Hirth on.  They both performed and used fuel about the same.  Later on he gave up flying the gyros, and finished the A model Avid and installed the Hirth in it.  This is the carbureted engine.  They make some with fuel injection, they may be better on fuel but his burned as much as my 582 Rotax which makes 10 HP more and would fly away from him in a heavier Avid fairly easy.  The Hirth is 600 and some CCs but turns up to a slower top RPM.  JImChuk

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Posted (edited)

A friend of mine has a 55 HP Hirth in his Avid A model.  He used to fly a gyrocopter.  Had a 503 on it.  Thought the Hirth would be better so he sold the rotax and put the Hirth on.  They both performed and used fuel about the same.  Later on he gave up flying the gyros, and finished the A model Avid and installed the Hirth in it.  This is the carbureted engine.  They make some with fuel injection, they may be better on fuel but his burned as much as my 582 Rotax which makes 10 HP more and would fly away from him in a heavier Avid fairly easy.  The Hirth is 600 and some CCs but turns up to a slower top RPM.  JImChuk

I just looked up Hirth engines - Top of the line is 4 cyl, opposed, fuel-injected, fan-cooled, gearbox 3003 with 110 hp and about 135 lbs weight, and I think they said 6200 rpm?  Still a 2-smoke!   There was photo of one in a Kitfox.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Just have to think it would burn a lot of fuel and who knows what the reliability is like.  Don't think they ever got popular, and that is often a bad sign.  JImChuk

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Posted

Just had a buddy of mine put a used 912UL on his plane, $4500.

These engines are out there.  You just have to open your eyes and EARS to people in the know in your neighborhood.

Wow!  Thats a deal.  

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Posted

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Posted

Says it weighs 550lbs wih the Jabiru 2200.  Thats encouraging

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Posted

I counted to 4 when the tail came up, and on 5 it was off the ground - looked good.  EDMO

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Posted

I believe that was John Miller's Avid B with a Jabiru 80 HP.  Look at the colors of it, and at Joey's plane, especially the cowl.  ;-)  JImChuk

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Posted

Now that was impressive, bring it on Zipper kits, :rolleyes:

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