Required Pilot Certification Level

[langdot 0]

Hello, sorry if this is a newbie question or if it's already been answered (I did try searching). I'm looking to make my step up to owning my own plane and have a line on an Avid Flyer Bandit, but I hold a Light Sport Pilot License (certificate). Given these are amateur built experiential aircraft and consequently gross weight and some other specifications are pilot discretion, and thus don't necessarily easily translate to LSA type specifications further that many pre-date 2008 when airworthiness certifications for LSA / experimentals were ended.

Can a pilot with a light sport certification operate an experiential Avid Flyer as PIC?

Again, sorry if I'm inaccurate in my conclusions, young pilot seeking the expert's opinion here.

(I do also have a call into my local FSDO, but the holiday is not playing well with Federal response times)

Edited 5 Jan 2017 by langdot

[dynomike 91]

Yes in short .as long as it meets the requirements.

[EDMO 1078]

LSA category includes any plane with a gross weight of not more than 1320 lbs - All Avid models thru the Mark IV, including Bandit, fit within this category, but that would not normally include the Airdale, unless the builder listed the GW as 1320 lbs, or Magnum.  

We like Newby questions - We were all Newbys once - Some a lot longer ago than others.  ;<)   EDMO

Edited 5 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

I've been flying Avids with a sport pilot license for about 11 years..  Second one in Mn.  Never had the FAA question it, and they have had opportunities what with engine out/emergency landing/crash.  Ect. Ect.  JImChuk

[lostman 198]

What specific LSA are you certified for? Many people don't realize you are specifically given privileges for a make and model unless you started as a private pilot and are just operating under the LSA rules. 

[EDMO 1078]

Hello, sorry if this is a newbie question or if it's already been answered (I did try searching). I'm looking to make my step up to owning my own plane and have a line on an Avid Flyer Bandit, but I hold a Light Sport Pilot License (certificate). Given these are amateur built experiential aircraft and consequently gross weight and some other specifications are pilot discretion, and thus don't necessarily easily translate to LSA type specifications further that many pre-date 2008 when airworthiness certifications for LSA / experimentals were ended.

Can a pilot with a light sport certification operate an experiential Avid Flyer as PIC?

Again, sorry if I'm inaccurate in my conclusions, young pilot seeking the expert's opinion here.

(I do also have a call into my local FSDO, but the holiday is not playing well with Federal response times)

Two of your statements are incorrect: 

1.  The Gross Weight of an Experimental plane is NOT to the pilot's discretion - the Builder sets it.  Normally, it is the same as the kit-maker advertised, but the builder can change that.   Some say that there is no gross weight listed, but the heaviest weight listed in Phase 1 flying is the MTOW (Maximum Take Off Weight).

2. The airworthiness certifications for Amateur-Built Experimental planes did not end in 2008 - it is still used.  The only LSA certification is for factory-built planes, SLSA and ELSA certifications.

The last thing I have to remind you of, with only a Sport Pilot rating, you have to be signed off for each type of plane you fly, and you will need a tail-dragger endorsement for the Bandit unless it is one of the few nose-draggers. 

EDMO

 

Edited 5 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Bit of a misnomer on the make and model.  Catagorys  are tail dragger, below 100 MPH, tail dragger 100- 138 MPH, tricycle gear  same speed groups as tail dragger, skis, same way, floats same way.  Then there are trikes, gyrocopters, and powered parachutes as well.  JImChuk

[EDMO 1078]

Bit of a misnomer on the make and model.  Catagorys  are tail dragger, below 100 MPH, tail dragger 100- 138 MPH, tricycle gear  same speed groups as tail dragger, skis, same way, floats same way.  Then there are trikes, gyrocopters, and powered parachutes as well.  JImChuk

Thanks Jim - I didn't know all that.   EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Ya, it's more like category and class then make and model.  I have a chart that lists all the different catagories, but didn't find it on my laptop now when I looked for it.  JImChuk

[EDMO 1078]

Ya, it's more like category and class then make and model.  I have a chart that lists all the different catagories, but didn't find it on my laptop now when I looked for it.  JImChuk

Probably what made me think it was make and model was remembering when I was renting - had to be signed off for each make and model before I could rent one even with a Private or Commercial ticket - That was for the FBO's insurance and lawyers - category and class makes more sense for Sport Pilots.   But I am not a CFI.   EDMO

Edited 5 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Originally it was going to be make and model endorsements, but it was changed to category and class by the time it became law.  None the less, your insurance co. may make you get some time with a CFI in a different plane before they will insure you.  JImChuk

[Geoffrey Thorpe 31]

What you will find is that many of the requirements for an aircraft to be flown by a sport pilot (meet the definition of LSA in part 1.1) are not listed in whatever documentation may have been created for the aircraft (E-AB or type certificated such as a Cub). These would include "A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) ", or "maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) ". But, in most cases, it's reasonably obvious if a particular aircraft will "fit" under these limits. Just go fly the sumnabitch and don't worry about it.

One of the "gotcha's", however, is if someone had installed a variable pitch propeller and then later removed it - this kicks that aircraft out of the LSA definition but you won't find it without digging through the logs.

[EDMO 1078]

What you will find is that many of the requirements for an aircraft to be flown by a sport pilot (meet the definition of LSA in part 1.1) are not listed in whatever documentation may have been created for the aircraft (E-AB or type certificated such as a Cub). These would include "A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) ", or "maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) ". But, in most cases, it's reasonably obvious if a particular aircraft will "fit" under these limits. Just go fly the sumnabitch and don't worry about it.

One of the "gotcha's", however, is if someone had installed a variable pitch propeller and then later removed it - this kicks that aircraft out of the LSA definition but you won't find it without digging through the logs.

The other "Gotcha" is that if it was recorded that the aircraft was EVER flown at a listed gross weight over 1320 lbs it no longer qualifies.   Some Ercoupe 415C models with 1260 GW were upgraded to D models with 1400 lbs GW, and after the Sport Pilot rules came out they were no longer eligible, even if converted back to C models or C/D models with 1260 GW.   Some other factory planes got caught with this Gotcha, and most of the Airdales too.   This should not be a problem with any of the Avid models before the Magnum.   EDMO

Edited 5 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[tx_swordguy 20]

Ok guys gonna hijack but along the same thought. I already fly an avid and have the SP tailwheel. I am interested in the Wittman tailwind which is obviously a faster airplane. I was told by a friend that is a CFI but not instructing that I could get a speed rating add on. My experience with my local FSDO leaves a lot to be desired as far as regs knowledge. I guess they are mostly concerned with the commercial guys. Many tailwinds are under/at the 1320 MTOW only have the two seats, VFR, etc the only difference being the speed. If I was to get said speed rating add on could I fly a tailwind fitting all other LSA  parameters? Or would I be forced into a Private pilot scenario and have to go that route? This isn't an immediate purchase but a long term goal eventually. I just have no desire to fly high, at night, or IFR and sport pilot privileges fit my flying desires to a T. Just thinking making a 7 hr drive into a 3 hr flight to see family would be nice.

Mark 

[TJay 1041]

you get it figured out because I would love to build my self a Tailwind

[EDMO 1078]

I think where there is a will, there is a way with Experimentals - maybe you could plackard the Tailwind not to exceed the limit on SP ratings - BTW, what is max mph speed for SP?  I know my Fox will never be that fast.  I think the Tailwind was about 165 mph cruise?   Look at that 180hp Cub that says you only use the full power for "takeoffs" - yeh, sure!   I like the Tailwind, but would put a Grove gear on it, which would slow it down a little, among other changes, like big tires.  I have a small book on the Tailwind. 

I think you can now buy a kit, or maybe plans, for the Buttercup.   EDMO

Edited 8 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[tx_swordguy 20]

not sure if I remember the speed numbers for lsa but think it is max of about 120-130 and cannot stall above 50-55 mph if I am remembering right.

edit; max level speed of 138mph

max stall speed of 51mph.

Edited 8 Jan 2017 by tx_swordguy

[1avidflyer 1983]

I've never heard of this higher speed endorsement for sport pilot.   Only speed ratings I am aware of are: less that 87 knots (100MPH)  and less than 120 knots (138 MPH)  JImChuk

[EDMO 1078]

I'm sure you could cruise a Tailwind or Buttercup at 138 mph (+ or - a mile or two ;<)) "max".   Donno about stall speed tho - might have to work on that?    EDMO

[Av8r3400 1178]

Good luck finding a DAR who will sign off on that. 

 

[nlappos 413]

 

 

FAA SPORT PILOT RULE

This is a synopsis of the definition of a light sport aircraft category, the requirements to obtain a sport pilot certificate, and requirements to obtain a repairman certificate with a maintenance or inspection rating. View the complete FAA regulation

The Light Sport Aircraft Rule:
The FAA defines a light sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

Max. Gross Takeoff Weight	1,320 lbs (1,430 lbs for seaplanes)
Max. Stall Speed	51 mph / 45 knots CAS
Max. Speed in Level Flight (VH)	138 mph / 120 knots CAS
Seats	Two (max.)
Engines / Motors	One (max. if powered.)
Propeller	Fixed-pitch or ground adjustable
Cabin	Unpressurized
Landing Gear	Fixed (except for seaplanes and gliders)

Edited 8 Jan 2017 by nlappos

[EDMO 1078]

Good luck finding a DAR who will sign off on that. 

 

Shouldn't be too hard to make a Wittman clone slow down - just make it more like a Kitfox!    EDMO

[TJay 1041]

Good luck finding a DAR who will sign off on that. 

 

Shouldn't be too hard to make a Wittman clone slow down - just make it more like a Kitfox!    EDMO

its called the butter cup, just not quite as attractive

[EDMO 1078]

Good luck finding a DAR who will sign off on that. 

 

Shouldn't be too hard to make a Wittman clone slow down - just make it more like a Kitfox!    EDMO

its called the butter cup, just not quite as attractive

Yes - Buttercup with Grove gear, big tires, and Kitfox 4 wings with droop tips - That might? slow it down to SP speeds!  

Edited 8 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Good luck finding a DAR who will sign off on that. 

 

Not sure exactly what you were referring to Larry, but if it's an experimental amateur built aircraft, I don't believe the DAR is the one who will specify whether the airplane meets light sport specs or not.   Come to think about it, if the top speed (VH) was expected to be close to the maximum allowed by light sport rules, one wouldn't know if it met those speed requirements until it was flown to determine what the maximum speed (VH) was.   Example:   If it was just under 138  MPH, without say lift strut fairings in place, it could be knocked out of the light sport envelope by fairing the struts which made the plane faster.   Another related example:   Engine instrument red lines can be put on before the first flight, but airspeed stall markings really should be established by flight testing.   Not trying to be argumentative, just saying how I see it. JImChuk