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Flaperon mixer

28 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Guys,

 

I see that the more degrees of flap limits left and right aileron input (I know they are flaperons).

When I have the full 15 degrees the stick only moves left or right a couple of inches is that right?

This is on the Magnum, but it should be the same on other avids too.

 

Thanks,

Ron

Edited by RDavidson

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Posted

I thought I read somewhere that you pull full flaps then start moving the stick left or right and also while pushing the flap lever forward, as the flap lever is pushing forward the stick will continue to move, when you get to full left or right that is your maximum flaps settings, Think I read that but not sure I totally agree with it, when I do it with mine I end up with only 12.5 degrees of flaps,

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Posted

One thing to check is to see if your flaperons control horns are hitting your turtleneck on full deflection.  On my MK IV, I loose a lot of roll control at full flaps and so for the most part do not use them on full deflection.  It has been suggested to save the flap handle until you are comfortable wearing your plane.  The rudder really becomes a bigger part of keeping safe with full flaps.

Cant wait to hear your flight reports, be safe. 

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Posted (edited)

OK, I muddied the waters...

I'm just asking if, with the flap handle pulled all the way up and flaperons at 15 degrees, is it normal for the stick to just barely move left and right?

It makes sense to me that they would work this way, but I just wanted confirmation.

 

Paul, I did look and the horns aren't hitting the Turtledeck...thanks for that!

 

I get my fuel servo back Monday night, should start it Tuesday morning and after adjusting I will call the DAR.  I can't wait to get it in the air!

 

Thanks,

Ron

Edited by RDavidson

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Posted

Ron,

On mine, at full flaps I loose a very minimal amount of roll control.  Are your horns hitting the turtle deck?  You stick should not be only moving a couple inches with flaps in.

 

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Posted

I Kinda started with the same issue, My right flaperon horn was clear any way I had my flap lever but the left horn was hitting the turtle deck with full flaps,  Pissed me off more than anything because I made sure those horns were riveted in the correct spot, sure don't want to see a extra bump in the turtle deck so level and re-leveled again, came to find out the tube which my left turtle deck hinge is mounted on was welded a 1/4 inch higher than the other side, Screwed everything up, so pulled the flaperon off and welded the small tabs on the top at a lower angle dropping the horn down a 1/4" problem solved, full 15 degree flaps, full stick movement left and right, now when the control stick stops the front of the flaperon is just touching the wing rib each direction I believe it is at 26 degrees, Don't know if it helps but its what I did,

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Posted

was looking over the build manual for a buddy on his KF IV  the horn was riveted on at 6 deg on the right side and 19 deg. on the left if I remember correctly.  I wonder if that was a quick fix for a screwed up jig?

 

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Posted

That would be my thought as well, Now on Rons plane if the horns are not hitting the turtle deck and the control rods aren't binding on the frame that says that something else is stopping the control stick movement, My guess is the front of the flaperons are hitting the wing, If that is the case he might have misread the angle gauge, Might be pulling 25 degrees flaps instead of 15? Just a thought,

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Posted

On my model III build manual the max flap setting is set by the realization of less aileron travel in the mixer.  I would have to look it up, but something like "apply full aileron deflection and pull up the flap lever until the stick moves inboard by "X" inch (or thereabouts).   

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Posted

Here is a good thread.

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Posted (edited)

was looking over the build manual for a buddy on his KF IV  the horn was riveted on at 6 deg on the right side and 19 deg. on the left if I remember correctly.  I wonder if that was a quick fix for a screwed up jig?

Just so the assumption that there is or was a screwed up model 4 jig doesn't get model 4 builders off on a wild goose chase:o...there wasn't.  The different angles on the left and right flaperon horns and different length flaperon push pull tubes are all part of the aileron differential magic.  It is necessary to result in getting maximum and equal aileron deflection on right and left sides.

Those different measurements on the left and right when riveting the flaperon horns is due to the left flaperon bellcrank being clocked to the rear 29 degrees and the right bellcrank clocked to the front 29 degrees.

There have been a few model 4 builders insist that the flaperon push pull tubes should be equal length too.  Some even fabricated their own when the factory couldn't convince them the different lengths is correct and necessary to have a good flying airplane.

I think the confusion comes in when builders see the flaperon rigging diagram in the manual and it shows the left flaperon bellcrank clocked 26 degrees to the back and the right 32 degrees to the front.  If you look closer you will see those angles are measured from a vertical line with the airplane leveled for rigging.  Measured in relation to the flaperon mixer the left is  26 degrees + 3 degrees = 29 degrees and the right is 32 degrees minus 3 degrees = 29 degrees.  So the left and right sides really do have all equal angles.  I'll make some pencil marks on the diagram and post it. 

 

 

Flaperon Mixer.jpg

Edited by tcj
Better diagram
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Posted

Well, I briefly looked again and I am definitely not hitting the turtledeck.

I'm not sure I understand the flaperon hitting the wing comment, that is physically impossible.

I'm sure that they are at 15 degrees...I have checked that several times.

 

Im thinking I have something not adjusted right in the mixer...I'm going to go through that in the manual tonight and hopefully fix it tomorrow.

Thanks for the ideas guys, I'll let you know what I find...

 

Ron

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Posted

When I say the wing I mean the flaperon hangers, the front of my flaps just touch the hanger,

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Posted

TJay, I'm tracking ya now...I'll look at that in the morning too...Thanks!

Ron

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Posted

Wow!  After looking at the build manual I discovered that the links between the flap handle and the mixer are completely different from the parts in the pictures.  I don't know what happened exactly, why they are different, but the result is that they are about half the length as the plans show.  That is why I'm struggling with the flap settings.  Im going to sort through my extra parts box :)  I will also post some pics tomorrow.

 

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Posted

I wonder if they sent you links for an avid flyer and not a magnum :dunno:  glad your on the right track to getting the problem solved though!

 

:BC:

 

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Posted

Wow!  After looking at the build manual I discovered that the links between the flap handle and the mixer are completely different from the parts in the pictures.  I don't know what happened exactly, why they are different, but the result is that they are about half the length as the plans show.  That is why I'm struggling with the flap settings.  Im going to sort through my extra parts box :)  I will also post some pics tomorrow.

 

Maybe another Magnum owner could do some measuring and post photos / measurements for you?   EDMO

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Posted

Yes, I would love any help from someone with a Magnum!  I might message Chris B.  I hate to bother him, he helped me out before.

Well, when I inventoried all of the parts I ended up with two powder coated rods, about 6" long with threaded ends.  Also left over were two heim bearing female ends.  After seeing what was in the plane I realized those two rods belong on the flap handle. 

Here is a pic of what is in the plane now (a replica) it is only about 4" end to end.  It is a bearing with a male all thread and a female bearing.  This is the only real mistake I have found that the original builder made, but a pretty serious one.

Is this how the Avid Flyer flap handle linkage is set up?

IMG_1815.thumb.JPG.b34d2ae633d1166376458

Here is a pic of the to rods and bearings I had left over. (They will have jam nuts when I put them on the plane)". They will be 7-8" when installed on the flap handle. (They look a tad long to me.)

IMG_1812.thumb.JPG.aaa8448b7ac2d707667b8

Here is what the build manual shows.  The pencil is pointing at the rod on the right. I think theirs was all thread or something similar in size.

IMG_1813.thumb.JPG.9fe225982e332e4dcf48bIMG_1814.thumb.JPG.7509f5ae4971896a5cfa5

 

 

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Posted

Well, the white rods were way too big, so I cut the middle of them out and welded the ends back together.  The new part is 3 1/4 inches from the ends of the threaded portions.  So, with the female bearings on each end I should have some room too adjust them longer.  I'll post a pic if they work :)

Oh, this is what was in there originally...I had been looking for that screw!

IMG_1842.thumb.JPG.046b275ec86fed25198ad

 

Ron

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Posted

Well, the new rods bound up the controls just as bad!

I'm at a loss here!

I did go back and read through the Kitfox III rigging that LSaupe posted the link to.  It seems like it could help me find the source of the binding.

I'll give it a whirl...frustrating!!!

 

Ron

 

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Posted

Do you have an Avid Magnum manual?  I thought the mixer controls on the Magnum were way different then the earlier Avids.   I'm trying to figure out what I'm looking at in your pictures, and it doesn't look like my Avids or early Kitfoxes.  Maybe if you are using directions from a different design???  That could cause problems I would think.  Then again, maybe I'm all wet.  (I did just get back from the beach)  JImChuk

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Posted

Jim,

I did use the Magnum manual, but it is vague at best.  Worse than that, the pictures don't match the hardware that came with the kit.

when I leveled my flight surfaces and then determined 5, 10, and 15 degrees of flap extension, the stick left and right motion was restricted at each level so much that at 15 degrees of flaperon the stick only moved an inch or two to each side.

I tried making longer rods from the flap handle to the bell crank, but that fixed nothing, it just moved the problem further along.

So, me reading the Kitfox setup is me grasping at straws!  I need to find out some definite answers.

1) Is the role of the mixer to limit left and right input as the flaps (flaperons) are extended?

2) How much left and right control input should be available at full flaperon extention (15 degrees)?

 

Wet!  Hell, I'm a soggy mess trying to figure this one out...

 

Thanks,

Ron

 

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Posted

Ok so I took some close up photos of mine, I know its different but uses the same principals, Look at the photos and notice where I'm pointing to, On the sides of those rod ends I had to make a small tube that just fit over the bolt, what that does is turn the rodend into a high misalignment rodend, if that is not there when I would pull flaps the rodends would pull to the side and bind up, I had to do it with the up and down one too, What you want to do is move the stick in every direction with and with out flaps and take your fingers and wiggle each rodend, they should all have a small about of movement, if not there binding and could break. Hope that helps,

100_1165.JPG

100_1167.JPG

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Posted

Whatever you do I'm sure you will get it.

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Posted

TJay!  That is genius!  I think that might be the problem at the flap handle...I'll try it out.

Thanks,

Ron

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