Oil reservoir for early flyer (Oil Injection)

[TSoftware 15]

So the new(ish) 582 is here and has oil injection.  The standard oil reservoir is not going to work because it is too big to fit on the firewall, because the motor mount gets in the way. Rotax suggests a minimum of 5% of fuel capacity, which for me is 15 gallons, which would make for a 3 quart reservoir, which will not fit and feels like a bit overkill for my application.  With 15 gallons of fuel, at a 50:1 mixture, I shouldn't use more than 39 ounces of oil, so a quart and a half should be adequate and hopefully will fit, as long as I can keep the output high enough for the pump.  Anyone have any suggestions for a reservoir?

I keep going back and forth about whether to just run pre-mix and figure out what all I have to do to "properly" disable the system.

TIA

[tcj 150]

Some models of Fan Cooled Ski Doos from the 80s and 90s have one like this.  One off a Rotary valve engine has holes for the rotary valve oil lines which you don't want on an airplane engine.  Your 582 has a separate rotary valve oil reservoir.  It is 8 inches wide X 6 inches high X 3.75 inches thick.  It holds about 2.5 quarts. It's off an 87 Ski Doo Skandic.   You can see the ounces I marked on mine up to 64 ounces with room left.  It has a low oil warning light hook up too.  Here's one on ebay.  The brass incerts you see on the sides of the ebay photo are used in the Ski Doo mount. I put one bolt through the firewall and another through the mounting frame I made

http://www.ebay.com/itm/96-97-98-99-SKI-DOO-FORMULA-S-380-S-2000-OIL-TANK-RESERVIOR-161097-/282304261085?hash=item41baa52bdd:g:FaEAAOSw-0xYYXGf&vxp=mtr

 

Edited 23 Apr 2017 by tcj

[Dusty 126]

A properly setup injection system will use an average of 70:1 (I have seen 100:1 but wouldn't reccomend it)this may help with yout tank size choice.

[TJay 1041]

 

 

 

 

Hey nice cowl seal it looks like  fingered out silicone? Not a bad idea,

[1avidflyer 1983]

Here is a tank CPS sells.  It holds 2 1/2 quarts.   JImChuk

http://www.cps-parts.com/search/search.php?s=1609

Edited 23 Apr 2017 by 1avidflyer

[TSoftware 15]

For some reason I am thinking that you have more vertical room above the motor mount than I do and my motor mount seems a lot more busy in that area.  Directly above the rear mount bolts, I only have four inches to the cowl, but I will double check tomorrow and probably post a pic of what I am dealing with.  I am also guessing that the oil output has to be above the injection lines into the intake.  I am posting a picture of where the engine arrived with one of the oil fittings busted off, which I still have to replace, but you can also see the oil lines coming up to the bottom of the engine.

[TSoftware 15]

Here is a tank CPS sells.  It holds 2 1/2 quarts.   JImChuk

http://www.cps-parts.com/search/search.php?s=1609

I had already looked at this one and can't see that I can get it high enough.  I was also looking at the ones with less capacity, but having the same problem.

[1avidflyer 1983]

On the Avid MK IVs that I've had, the oil tank was actually on the pilot's side of the firewall.  I'll see if I can find a picture.  Avid used a fiberglass tank that held about a gallon.  JImChuk

[dholly 718]

Jim is correct, here is a pic of my old Mk-IV

[1avidflyer 1983]

Here again Doug, I have to straighten you out. ;-)  I was wrong!  Boy is that hard to say. :-)   I got looking through some of my pictures, and while my first MK IV had the fiberglass tank like you show, my second one had a plastic tank.  The second one was about 125 earlier serial # so maybe they used this plastic tank for a while and then went with the fiberglass one??? It sure looks like it fit the space it was in very well.  Maybe the alshimers is creeping up on me after all.  :-)  Sorry I don't have pics that show it better, this is all I found of the plastic tank, and the one with the fiberglass tank just barley showed a corner of the tank.   As far as the broken oil line goes, I would be worried about getting that out.  I think if it was mine, I would carefully try an easy out, but it that didn't work I would try to tap the inside of the fitting hole and use a smaller fitting.   I'm worried that the broken fitting may just expand and not want to back out.   The rotary valve oil system is just an oil bath, not really any circulation though there.  You do want to make sure you get all the air out of the system when you fill it with oil however.  The brass gear on the crankshaft will not last long if it's running dry.  I fill directly into the bottom hose (unhook the hose from the bottle) and then as the oil level rises, it pushes the air out the top oil outlet, filling the system completely with oil.  There is also a bleed screw on the 582 for getting out the trapped air.  I don't trust it as much as filling as I've described.  JImChuk

Edited 24 Apr 2017 by 1avidflyer

[dholly 718]

Well, if it sheds any light, my s/n was 1127D. I have never seen another with a rotomolded tank on the inside firewall, perhaps that was be a homebrew solution for an oil tank gone bad? I have heard that the old f/g tanks had a tendency to leak but have no evidence to support it.

[tcj 150]

Hey nice cowl seal it looks like  fingered out silicone? Not a bad idea,

Yes, red RTV (fire resistant), stick-on weather stripping from the hardware store, and a gloved finger dipped in alcohol.

 

 

Edited 24 Apr 2017 by tcj

[1avidflyer 1983]

Well, if it sheds any light, my s/n was 1127D. I have never seen another with a rotomolded tank on the inside firewall, perhaps that was be a homebrew solution for an oil tank gone bad? I have heard that the old f/g tanks had a tendency to leak but have no evidence to support it.

I don't know one way or the other Doug, the serial # of the one with the plastic tank was 1045, and the fiberglass tank one was 1176D.  JImChuk

PS  Maybe the tank came off a snowmobile, it was built originally in Wisconsin.  Maybe someone with a C model will pipe up with what kind of tank they have. 

Edited 24 Apr 2017 by 1avidflyer

[TSoftware 15]

Here again Doug, I have to straighten you out. ;-)  I was wrong!  Boy is that hard to say. :-)   I got looking through some of my pictures, and while my first MK IV had the fiberglass tank like you show, my second one had a plastic tank.  The second one was about 125 earlier serial # so maybe they used this plastic tank for a while and then went with the fiberglass one??? It sure looks like it fit the space it was in very well.  Maybe the alshimers is creeping up on me after all.  :-)  Sorry I don't have pics that show it better, this is all I found of the plastic tank, and the one with the fiberglass tank just barley showed a corner of the tank.   As far as the broken oil line goes, I would be worried about getting that out.  I think if it was mine, I would carefully try an easy out, but it that didn't work I would try to tap the inside of the fitting hole and use a smaller fitting.   I'm worried that the broken fitting may just expand and not want to back out.   The rotary valve oil system is just an oil bath, not really any circulation though there.  You do want to make sure you get all the air out of the system when you fill it with oil however.  The brass gear on the crankshaft will not last long if it's running dry.  I fill directly into the bottom hose (unhook the hose from the bottle) and then as the oil level rises, it pushes the air out the top oil outlet, filling the system completely with oil.  There is also a bleed screw on the 582 for getting out the trapped air.  I don't trust it as much as filling as I've described.  JImChuk

Ok, interesting solution on the inside of the firewall and demonstrates my other question.  With the oil injector pump being gravity fed, does the output of the tank need to be above the oil pump or above the injection lines.  It would not appear as though output of this tank would just (barely?) be above the level of the oil injection pump entrance.  The instructions indicate that it must be above the input line of the pump, but I was thinking this meant in a vertical installation, not an inverted one, in which the oil has a higher hill to climb.

BTW, do you have a source for that coolant bottle?  I have one exactly like it that I need to replace, but haven't been able to find one yet.  I like its compactness and had about decided I was going to have to go with another design.

[1avidflyer 1983]

I believe the oil outlet is above the oil pump on this set up.  Realize the picture was taken from below looking up.  The aluminum tube is pretty much flat with the ground.  I know in the picture it looks like it goes upward.  As far as the water bottle, I think it was just a plastic bottle with a screw on top.  Like a squeeze bottle.  JImChuk

[TSoftware 15]

Also have to remember that I have a header tank and no wing tanks, so I don't have as much room in this area.  I am considering going with a larger tank than I believe that I need and then ensure that I keep my oil level high enough to meet the requirement, if I can manage to fit it in and make it work.

My issue is defining what the requirement is in an inverted installation.  I am trying really hard to keep the oil injection for so many reasons, but not to the detriment of the engine.

I figure the minimum requirement is one of the three:

1. Where the oil line connects to the pump (I figure this is the least likely)
2. Where the injection pump is attached to the engine (possible if the pump actually pushed the oil into the injection tubes)
3. The highest point of the injection lines (which would put it close to the bottom of the motor mount and will be the hardest to accommodate).

I have asked the question here, on the Rotax Owner's forum and to the guy that I got the engine from, But no one has answered the question yet.  I guess my next step will be to try and contact someone from Rotax proper.

[1avidflyer 1983]

Sorry, forgot about the fuel tank on your plane.  If that's your only fuel tank though, what is it?  9 gallons?  A pint and a half of oil will take care of 9 gallons at 50 to 1 mixture.  So any tank that holds a quart or more would easily have enough oil for that amount of fuel with some reserve oil left.  Maybe you can fit a tank on the front of the fire wall on the pilot's side?? Do you have any pictures of your engine/firewall area?  JImChuk

[TSoftware 15]

I also have an aux tank behind the seat.  The Highest mark on the main fuel tank is 7 gallons and there is still a bit to go, so 9 or 10 is probably right...and the aux is probably around 5 gallons.  So I figure max is probably 15, which would require 39 oz, so I was thinking a quart and a half would be about right...if I could find the right shaped tank.  But I have to determine how high the bottom of the tank needs to be.  If I size it right, but the bottom of the tank is too low...it won't feed the oil, because calling it a pump is somewhat a misnomer, because it is gravity fed, so it won't pull the oil if it is too low.  The other issue is that the motor mount keeps getting in the way of many tanks.

According to Rotax, for 15 gallons, you should have a 3 quart tank...that is not happening.  I don't have any pictures handy, but my thoughts are pilot side firewall, which is where the coolant bottle is or the passenger side firewall, where all of the electrical connections are and the remoted ignitions and the capacitor.  The other option would be on top of the motor mount, but there isn't a whole lot of clearance to the cowl.

I guess I was hoping that someone with a similar aircraft had already skinned this cat.

I think that I can get rid of the capacitor and I am going to try and keep the new magnetos on the engine...but haven't test fitted yet to see if it is possible.

Obviously, the key here is just how high does it have to be and that is the question I haven't gotten an answer to yet.

[TJay 1041]

At your highest angel of attach the tank outlet should be at least level with the inlet of the pump, Higher is of course better but the oil in the tank should create head pressure as well.

[TSoftware 15]

At your highest angel of attach the tank outlet should be at least level with the inlet of the pump, Higher is of course better but the oil in the tank should create head pressure as well.

Yes, that is what the instructions say, but does that not pre-suppose a plugs up installation?  In a plugs up installation that is the high point of the system.  That is the crux of the question.

[TSoftware 15]

Ok, I just talked to two engine shops and am posting my findings here in case someone else comes looking.  In an inverted installation the gravity feed must handle up to the injection outlets on the pump, not the inlet. So the minimum oil level (possibly the bottom of the reservoir) must be above this point.

The oil injection pump is gravity fed up to this point and then the pump portion takes over to pressure it into the oil injection lines.

[1avidflyer 1983]

I was just looking at an Avid mounted 582.  It's not in the plane right now so I couldn't make measurements against say my Kitfox 1 582 spark plugs up engine.  Just looking at it though, I would say the oil pump sits lower on the Avid plugs down engine than the Kitfox.   Another thought on this is the location Doug's and my pictures show the oil tanks on a couple different Avids that had 582 engines with oil injection.  That was the location specified by the factory.  Lots of Avids have flown with their oil tank in this location with no problems of oil flow to the oil pump that I am aware of.  Based on what I've just said, if my oil tank outlet was any where above the bottom engine mount bolts for height, I would not worry about it.  YMMV  JImChuk

[TSoftware 15]

Therein was the rub... None of the reservoirs were able to meet that criteria.. Not enough vertical space to accomplish that. 

[1avidflyer 1983]

Here are lots of tanks for snowmobiles on ebay.  I would look through them, and the ones I think might fit, I would ask the sellers for dimentions.  JImChuk 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1311.R1.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xsnowmobile+oil+tan.TRS0&_nkw=snowmobile+oil+tank&_sacat=0

[1avidflyer 1983]

Almost positive this is the one used on my Kitfox 1.  It might not fit the Avid though.  JImChuk

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Vmax-XT-600-Injection-Oil-Tank-Reservoir-Snowmobile-ST-Deluxe-/332193120199?hash=item4d5840bfc7:g:ceEAAOSwN6JY~SCB&vxp=mtr