Matco Brake conversion

[C5Engineer 1170]

I spent some time on Matco's website today and got myself thoroughly confused. Since I'm starting from scratch I was hoping maybe you guys could help out. I want to go with bigger tires down the road and only want to have to do this once. I'm thinking I would need 6" wheels with at least double puck calipers. Which master cylinders? Any idea what a stock axle size is? The other big thing is I'm going to have to modify my pedals to accept the master cylinders. I've read there are mods for this to to get more mechanical advantage and thus better breaking. Wonder if Brett has the rudder pedal assemblies and wheels on hand. Any parts lists anyone has would be great so I can start pricing it out. I got a nice over escrow check from the bank today because we bought a house this year that I think would just about cover it...."ya honey we'll use it for home improvements... "

[84KF 4]

I know the topic is MATCO, but here are some pics of my Clevelands 6.00 - 6, about 95 hrs TT since new. Probably won't help, but what the heck...

[Av8r3400 1178]

Brett has everything you need for the conversion. I think he has at least a couple sets of brakes/wheels on the shelf and I know he has the rudder peddles, I was looking at them today.

I will be there tomorrow and I'll get the details for you.

Call you tomorrow evening?

(Your axles are 3/4" diameter.)

Edited 3 Feb 2010 by Av8r3400

[Av8r3400 1178]

I know the topic is MATCO, but here are some pics of my Clevelands 6.00 - 6, about 95 hrs TT since new. Probably won't help, but what the heck...

Probably the benchmark for good brakes on a small plane...

Was there a reason you didn't go with the Grove brakes?

[84KF 4]

"...Was there a reason you didn't go with the Grove brakes? "

I aquired the plane from the widow of the builder..... and they were already installed.

But the Cleveland wheels and brakes, and Maule tailwheel setup made the decision to buy easier. I like the idea of having "real" airplane parts as much as possible. (I'm still getting used to owning and flying an aircraft held together with "pop rivits".)

[C5Engineer 1170]

I'm currently running the 8.00X6 Carlisle Tires. I found a site with these 21X12-8 NK N800 SLICK TREAD 2 PLY Made by Nankang for like 33" a piece. Sounds like a lot of guys are running them. Is going to a 8" wheel a pain for finding brake parts?

[Bandit 286]

Matco sells 8" wheels and brakes. I had mine custom made from ATV wheels.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Matco sells 8" wheels and brakes. I had mine custom made from ATV wheels.

Saw that..too bad they are over $300 a wheel!! Do you have any pics or specs on your wheels? I know a few machinist that could prob do something like this for me. I'm curious what brand of wheels you used and what you used for a rotor and caliper.

[Av8r3400 1178]

Joey-- ( I got your text. Sorry I didn't reply, yet. )

The Kitfoxes use a 8" aluminum ATV wheel with tabs welded on the back that mount the brake disc. The caliper reaches from the ID to the OD (backwards from most applications). I'm headed over to the airport today and will send you a pic of the setup. I have my gear all reassembled with the new prototype "ski axles" installed.

Brett still supplies the 6" setup for Avids, but we were talking about looking for a more reasonably priced option of going with an 8" wheel. At the time we still had one of my Kitfox wheels on the bench for ski fitting. So we were using that as a idea starter...

[C5Engineer 1170]

Joey-- ( I got your text. Sorry I didn't reply, yet. )

The Kitfoxes use a 8" aluminum ATV wheel with tabs welded on the back that mount the brake disc. The caliper reaches from the ID to the OD (backwards from most applications). I'm headed over to the airport today and will send you a pic of the setup. I have my gear all reassembled with the new prototype "ski axles" installed.

Brett still supplies the 6" setup for Avids, but we were talking about looking for a more reasonably priced option of going with an 8" wheel. At the time we still had one of my Kitfox wheels on the bench for ski fitting. So we were using that as a idea starter...

Thanks. Can you confirm whether or not he has all the rudder pedal pieces. Looks like there is more to it than just the toe piece.

[Av8r3400 1178]

Thanks. Can you confirm whether or not he has all the rudder pedal pieces. Looks like there is more to it than just the toe piece.

Yes he has the complete rudder peddle assemblies (W/ mounts for Matco brake parts) for your Avid.

We were talking today a bit about the wheel situation. I gave him your cell # and he will probably contact you in regard to this, soon. For the record, Kitfox doesn't even support the 8" ATV style wheels any more. Deb McBean (I emailed her for price, etc.) told me to use the 8" Matco wheel. (Yikes $$$!)

I may look into what it would take to produce these old Kitfox style wheels again as an option... Stand by.

[akflyer 1427]

Yes he has the complete rudder peddle assemblies (W/ mounts for Matco brake parts) for your Avid.

We were talking today a bit about the wheel situation. I gave him your cell # and he will probably contact you in regard to this, soon. For the record, Kitfox doesn't even support the 8" ATV style wheels any more. Deb McBean (I emailed her for price, etc.) told me to use the 8" Matco wheel. (Yikes $!)

I may look into what it would take to produce these old Kitfox style wheels again as an option... Stand by.

it is easy enough to get a set of Douglas welded ATV wheels in 8". They will probably have to be drilled to meet the bolt pattern. Then you have to rustle up a set of hubs from some old kitfox... hmm... I may have an extra set.. then a set of rotors.. hmm.. may have a set of those too. Then you weld lugs inside the wheel for the rotors to bolt to. That is not a big issue as akflyerbob had a set made. Then you get the matco calipers and masters, a little plumbing and you be ready to stop your plane much better than it will now! I would look into the re-inforced toe brakes that a guy on the yahoo group had been selling. I think Jackak has a set of the pedals that I looked at. Mine and wagonmasters both flex a bit too much when you really try to stand on them.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Thanks guys! I also saw some traffic a while back where someone changed the geometry of the tabs on their rudder pedals and was able to get way better braking out of the single puck brakes. It seems with the stock set up the mechanical advantage is not there to make the MC's work to their full potenial. I'll dig around and see what I can come up with with over there.

I flew around in the pattern and the local area after my wife dropped me off to go shopping yesterday. Got in a .7 and 5 landings. I'm getting pretty comfortable landing with power rather than elevator. It's a lot easier to grease it on by controlling sink rate with the engine rather than trying to flare it off. This is on pavement BTW. I tend to be a lot slower and plop it in a bit more when landing on rough stuff. Still makes you smile when you fly one on and the tires don't even chirp. I took a degree of pitch out of the prop yesterday because I had only been getting around 6150 on take off. I gets up to 6350 now and highest I saw was 6600 at 110mph after holding it WFO for a few minutes. I picked up about 200fpm in the climb and noticed only a very slight decrease in cruise speed. Less than 5 hours to go! My last test is to fill the tanks to the brim verify they are 14 gallons and then go fly it and see how it handles, and see how much leaks out. My most aft CG will occur in this config.

[jackak 20]

Joey,

The guy that I got the brake pedals from is Michael Schuetz, he goes by "westofthe3rd". His email address is lazysredangus@sasktel.net. He knows a lot about the avid brakes and might help you in working out your fix. He is able to turn down the shaft on the master cylinder if needed to get the proper fit. I'm not sure of his current prices, but the work he does is top notch.

Jack

[C5Engineer 1170]

Thanks a ton for the info Jack. I sent him an email. I also talked to Brett today on the phone and he has all the parts too. Sounds like they are working on an 8" wheel set up.

[C5Engineer 1170]

I get a lot of parts for my dirt bike from Rocky Mt ATV. I did a quick search and found these bad boys.

25X8" slick for $80 a piece. I think 21" would be plenty for what I want to do.

I found the 21X8 Nankang slicks here

http://www.atvtires.net/productdetail.asp?gn=N800

[Av8r3400 1178]

Though mine have tread on them, the size of 20x7x8 seems to be really good for my application of grass runways and river sandbars.

Here's the pic of my brake I promised...

[Bandit 286]

Got my 7" Matco tailwheel today. Hope to get it on this weekend. Sure would like to try those 25 X 8 slicks. I wonder how much weight difference there is from the King Fox?

Edited 10 Feb 2010 by Bandit

[C5Engineer 1170]

Got my 7" Matco tailwheel today. Hope to get it on this weekend. Sure would like to try those 25 X 8 slicks. I wonder how much weight difference there is from the King Fox?

They are the same tires only 4" bigger. Doubt there is much weight difference. These are still ATV tires. I tried to install my 7" Matco TW this weekend but I still could not even get close to releasing it so I ordered their other arms that release at 25 degrees.

[Av8r3400 1178]

They are the same tires only 4" bigger. Doubt there is much weight difference. These are still ATV tires. I tried to install my 7" Matco TW this weekend but I still could not even get close to releasing it so I ordered their other arms that release at 25 degrees.

Joey,

How does the width of the Matco tailwheel arms compare to your rudder horn?

I dug for about a half an hour for that 25" tire and never found it. What size wheel does that one take?

[C5Engineer 1170]

Joey,

How does the width of the Matco tailwheel arms compare to your rudder horn?

I dug for about a half an hour for that 25" tire and never found it. What size wheel does that one take?

Larry it's slightly wider like the Maule but the way the geometric release works on the Matco I needed even more travel than with my Maule. Their other arms release at 25 degrees and you can remove material to make it release later. I'm going to try it as is and if it's too squirrely I'll start making it release later until I'm comfortable with it. In the grass, dirt, and sand the easier the better but on pavement it could be a real gotcha if it unlocks at speed.

Does anybody know how many degrees of throw the old straight rudder was supposed to have when it hit the stops? I'm going to have to pull out my manual and check that.

Here's a link to those tires. If it doesn't work just go to www.rockymountainatv.com and hit tires and wheels on the left side then select ATV tires, show all tires. It's like the second from the bottom. It's a 25X8X12

http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/productDetail.do?&navType=type&webTypeId=138&navTitle=Tires+and+Wheels&webCatId=8&prodFamilyId=6059#vehicleSelect

[Av8r3400 1178]

Here's a link to those tires. If it doesn't work just go to www.rockymountainatv.com and hit tires and wheels on the left side then select ATV tires, show all tires. It's like the second from the bottom. It's a 25X8X12

http://www.rockymoun...9#vehicleSelect

25x8x12 would go onto a 12" rim. Really have to do some fab work for a 12" atv rim...

[C5Engineer 1170]

25x8x12 would go onto a 12" rim. Really have to do some fab work for a 12" atv rim...

Heard back from the guy that Jack referred me to today. Looks like he's making a pretty slick product. Claims there is a 1/3 better braking capability due to the top halves of the pedals not flexing. He also incorporated that little piece underneath to prevent you from riding the brakes. They cost twice what Brett is asking for the stock parts but I can appreciate how much time goes into building something like that. He said he has 10 hours at least into each set.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Scored a complete set of Kitfox gear legs, wheels, brakes, and tires all brand new just waiting on delivery. Can anyone tell me what I'm going to have to do to bolt the wheels up to my Avid gear? This is turning into quite the project.

[Av8r3400 1178]

Scored a complete set of Kitfox gear legs, wheels, brakes, and tires all brand new just waiting on delivery. Can anyone tell me what I'm going to have to do to bolt the wheels up to my Avid gear? This is turning into quite the project.

The axles are both 3/4", so they *should* go right onto your existing gear legs. (I would use the new axles.) My opinion, I'd copy the 4-bolt flange that are on the 'Fox legs and have these copies welded onto your Avid gear legs. This flange is where you bolt the caliper brackets to.

Bolt it together and then start stoppin' on a dime....

(What tires did it come with? 8" wheels, right?)