vortex generators and FAA

[tx_swordguy 20]

Guys need some help. Trying to be legal for my upcoming conditional and my ops limits state that for a major change I must notify the cognizant FAA office and get a written response from them prior to flight. In contacting the local fsdo and trying to find out who I must get a written response from all I have gotten so far is "its experimental do what you want just be careful" and "I don't know try such and such" well such and such is never at his phone and doesn't return calls. I finally got a guy today that in his 3 yrs hes never heard of this but at least he says he says he is going to find out. He was talking about having some one having to do all kinds of math to figure out the affect it will have on the plane and he has no idea who to have that done. The DAR I was pointed to said any faa inspector could help me out. Every thing I have seen on line and reading from the sites it doesn't sound like it should be such a big deal. Never having had an airplane go through a condition inspection before, am I overly worried? There is no mention of vgs in any of the books but I assume that an a+p would see that and go hmmm. Thanks for any help I know I have pestered you guys over the months but appreciate any help.

Mark Whiddon

 

[EDMO 1078]

Your OPLIMs need to be changed to the latest version.  FSDO can sometimes do that.  The latest version lets you make a major change with only a logbook entry, but you may have to put the plane back into Phase 1 for a minimum of 5 hours.   I think the newest version is a copy of AC2027G or H, but you need to verify that with someone else as I am not good at remembering the numbers of FAA documents.   I cant say if adding VGs is a major change or not.  They didn't use them when I went to school.  Most of the time, a minor modification on a factory plane is not listed as Major unless it "significantly changes weight or CG", and would need an STC or Field Approval.  Yours is not a factory plane.  Two other rules in dealing with the FAA:  1.  "If it isn't on paper, it didn't happen."  2.  "Don't ask - Don't tell"!  ;<)  EDMO

Edited 9 Jun 2017 by EDMO

[tx_swordguy 20]

Ok does this mean I screwed up? Is the a+p going to contact the faa during the inspection? Just was concerned since my condition insp was coming up next month

I appreciate the help

Mark

Edited 9 Jun 2017 by tx_swordguy

[EDMO 1078]

This plane had to be inspected before and passed.  I don't know what your A&P is going to do.  Have you mentioned the VGs?  If not, just sit tight and see what the A&P says, IMO.  There is no TCDS (Type Certificate Data Sheet) for experimental planes.  The TCDS on Factory planes lists all equipment approved for the plane.  Not for yours.  

LAST THOUGHT:  The A&P may ask you to put a logbook entry that you installed the VGs.   EDMO

Edited 9 Jun 2017 by EDMO

[chopndrag 226]

I did vg's on my dad's plane and never was asked about them ever. I'm with edmo don't mention them and it shouldn't be a big deal .All we did was a logbook entry that we installed them and that's it . Most A&P mechanics know very little about experimental airplanes so he might not even care . They aren't a structural part or repair so I wouldn't worry. 

[C5Engineer 1170]

How would anyone ever know that it didn't have VGs when the ops limits were issued? What your doing is like hunting down a cop to tell him you forgot to put the insurance card in your glove box despite having insurance. VGs are not a major mod. Certified planes don't even worry about them. Step away from the phone and stay far far away from the Feds and A & Ps that don't know the Experimental world. The only logbook entry required is the conditional inspection. I've made so many mods on my plane over the years that it would of never left Phase 1 ever if I called the FAA for all of them. There's a reason why we have all left the certified world. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

[chopndrag 226]

How would anyone ever know that it didn't have VGs when the ops limits were issued? What your doing is like hunting down a cop to tell him you forgot to put the insurance card in your glove box despite having insurance. VGs are not a major mod. Certified planes don't even worry about them. Step away from the phone and stay far far away from the Feds and A & Ps that don't know the Experimental world. The only logbook entry required is the conditional inspection. I've made so many mods on my plane over the years that it would of never left Phase 1 ever if I called the FAA for all of them. There's a reason why we have all left the certified world. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

exactly that's why it's called experimental aircraft. I couldn't imagine all the bs I would have to go through with a ap while doing the nose mod alone on my plane . 

[EDMO 1078]

How would anyone ever know that it didn't have VGs when the ops limits were issued? What your doing is like hunting down a cop to tell him you forgot to put the insurance card in your glove box despite having insurance. VGs are not a major mod. Certified planes don't even worry about them. Step away from the phone and stay far far away from the Feds and A & Ps that don't know the Experimental world. The only logbook entry required is the conditional inspection. I've made so many mods on my plane over the years that it would of never left Phase 1 ever if I called the FAA for all of them. There's a reason why we have all left the certified world. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Joey,  I agree with most of what you said.  Yes, the VGs could have been part of the original build inspection and did not need to be logged.  I have changed SO MUCH of the design of my plane from what Kitfox sold that it would take a huge book to note all of the modifications I have made and that is not required, but when it is airworthy inspected, then it IS what it IS! 

However, adding VGs to a Factory-Built plane requires an STC that the VG manufacturer usually supplies.  There are no STCs for our planes, and that saves a lot of $$$ and headaches!   I Love Experimentals!   Cheers,  EDMO

Edited 10 Jun 2017 by EDMO

[nlappos 413]

There is no requirement to get approval for "minor changes" and I assure you, VG's are not a major change. FAR 21.93 tells you what is important:

" (a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of this section, changes in type design are classified as minor and major. A “minor change” is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are “major changes” (except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section)."

Don't ask permission of the FAA, just log the VG install as a minor change in your maintenance manual and proceed.

 

Edited 10 Jun 2017 by nlappos

[1avidflyer 1983]

I'm reminded of an old saying that goes "better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission"  Decide for yourself if that fits your situation or not.  ;-)  JImChuk

[Geoffrey Thorpe 31]

Ask your AI if he/she is going to have a shit fit or if it's no big deal in their opinion. If your AI is happy, then everybody will be happy.

[akflyer 1427]

dont need an IA for experimental, just an AP.  I would not even log the install, its your plane, put them on.  I would start at around 5-7%  I went 10% and I am pretty sure they are too far back.  I took them off when I repainted my wings last summer and my stall speed did go up and few MPH and I lost some climb as well.  I am going to put them back on but move them forwards SOON!