Blocking off the Oil Injector 582

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Posted

Its been recommended by several people that I get rid of the Oil Injector on my 582. After the second rebuilder made this claim I think it might be a worthy recommendation. 

What is the proper way to block off this system? If I'm not going to use I'd like to remove it from the system.....tank, injector and hoses.

Rvsimons

 

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Posted

Remove everything related to the oil injection and either make or buy a block off plate where the oil injection was . Easy job to do .

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Posted

Is there a drive gear or shaft that gets removed?

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Posted

Nope just the system itself . All I did with mine was remove the tank ,cable and hoses . I left my injection in because of it being a pain in the ass because of the position.

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Posted

To each his own, but I like the oil injection system.  Never had any problems with them.  JImChuk

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Posted

I have a local UL flyer who likes his. He has several hundred hours trouble free. Seems to be alot of negative response to them. I personally never heard of anyone having one fail on a Rotax.

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Posted

I've heard the same thing but having a injection system fail in a dirt bike and having to push it about a mile in sugar sand was it for me . I just stick to pre mix and that way I know exactly what my plane is running the same mixture all the time .

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Posted

One of my planes has 1200 hours of trouble free flying with oil injection,it is good to pull up to th the pumps on a x country and not worry about mixing.all the failures here can be traced back to the operator,broken cables,no oil,air in the system etc, arn't injection failures.The stripped gear rumour is usually from disconnected oilers that will eventually seize,I would recommend leaving it on.

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Posted

I would need to change the lines. What would a guy do about making sure all the air was purged from the system?

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Posted

There is a drain bolt on the pump, and once you purge that much, run a few gallons of mixed gas through the engine.  That's what I would do.  You will be able to see if there is oil or air in the lines going to the intake manifold.  JImChuk

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Posted

Change the engine design? Block off an existing system because you know better? Sure, and don't forget the self brain surgery.

I am an engineer for an OEM, and constantly see the logic applied by darn smart people to out think the engineers who design, build and support their complex products. It is amusing. 

I guarantee you more engines fail because the user didn't put enough oil in, as compared to the engines that fail because the oil injection didn't work. Remember, the prime cause of engine failure, by 3 to 1 factor, is that the pilot put too much air in the fuel tanks.

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Posted

Change the engine design? Block off an existing system because you know better? Sure, and don't forget the self brain surgery.

I am an engineer for an OEM, and constantly see the logic applied by darn smart people to out think the engineers who design, build and support their complex products. It is amusing. 

I guarantee you more engines fail because the user didn't put enough oil in, as compared to the engines that fail because the oil injection didn't work. Remember, the prime cause of engine failure, by 3 to 1 factor, is that the pilot put too much air in the fuel tanks.

Yeah and engineer and oem aren't necessarily a good thing either . I used to do contract work for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed and Nasa to name a few. Several times us so called builder's had to tell the engineer there stuff isn't going to work . They would argue and throw a fit . We proved to them time and time again that there is a thing called over engineered. Taking something already complex and making it worse by adding more stuff to it . If people don't mix there oil and fuel right that's on them , theres ratio cups that are easy to use. If you wanna be a a$$ do it to someone who hasn't seen a desk jockey engineer have to swallow his pride and walk away on numerous occasions where his so called design was the best thing since sliced bread. Look at all the new piece of crap cars we have . They might as well be computers it makes no sense to have that much crap to run a simple spark , air and fuel engine . 

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Posted (edited)

Change the engine design? Block off an existing system because you know better? Sure, and don't forget the self brain surgery.

I am an engineer for an OEM, and constantly see the logic applied by darn smart people to out think the engineers who design, build and support their complex products. It is amusing. 

I guarantee you more engines fail because the user didn't put enough oil in, as compared to the engines that fail because the oil injection didn't work. Remember, the prime cause of engine failure, by 3 to 1 factor, is that the pilot put too much air in the fuel tanks.

Yeah and engineer and oem aren't necessarily a good thing either . I used to do contract work for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed and Nasa to name a few. Several times us so called builder's had to tell the engineer there stuff isn't going to work . They would argue and throw a fit . We proved to them time and time again that there is a thing called over engineered. Taking something already complex and making it worse by adding more stuff to it . If people don't mix there oil and fuel right that's on them , theres ratio cups that are easy to use. If you wanna be a a$$ do it to someone who hasn't seen a desk jockey engineer have to swallow his pride and walk away on numerous occasions where his so called design was the best thing since sliced bread. Look at all the new piece of crap cars we have . They might as well be computers it makes no sense to have that much crap to run a simple spark , air and fuel engine . 

I'm with you on this - I couldn't count the times I had to tell an "engineer" that his plans or drawings wouldn't work.  We only had one "engineer" with a ME degree, and he was about the dumbest of the lot of them.   Most of the time they would come to the machine shop and tell a Toolmaker what they wanted and we would design and make it and they would go back to their office and take credit for it.  EDMO

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

Change the engine design? Block off an existing system because you know better? Sure, and don't forget the self brain surgery.

I am an engineer for an OEM, and constantly see the logic applied by darn smart people to out think the engineers who design, build and support their complex products. It is amusing. 

I guarantee you more engines fail because the user didn't put enough oil in, as compared to the engines that fail because the oil injection didn't work. Remember, the prime cause of engine failure, by 3 to 1 factor, is that the pilot put too much air in the fuel tanks.

Yeah and engineer and oem aren't necessarily a good thing either . I used to do contract work for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed and Nasa to name a few. Several times us so called builder's had to tell the engineer there stuff isn't going to work . They would argue and throw a fit . We proved to them time and time again that there is a thing called over engineered. Taking something already complex and making it worse by adding more stuff to it . If people don't mix there oil and fuel right that's on them , theres ratio cups that are easy to use. If you wanna be a a$$ do it to someone who hasn't seen a desk jockey engineer have to swallow his pride and walk away on numerous occasions where his so called design was the best thing since sliced bread. Look at all the new piece of crap cars we have . They might as well be computers it makes no sense to have that much crap to run a simple spark , air and fuel engine . 

I'm with you on this - I couldn't count the times I had to tell an "engineer" that his plans or drawings wouldn't work.  We only had one "engineer" with a ME degree, and he was about the dumbest of the lot of them.   Most of the time they would come to the machine shop and tell a Toolmaker what they wanted and we would design and make it and they would go back to their office and take credit for it.  EDMO

Edmo you and I both , every engineer looks at us builders as unedjimicated fux that don't now anything . Meanwhile the engineers can design complete garbage and be totally right in the eyes of himself. There is use for engineers in some things though . Us builders can use them as shields when the zombies come hahaa.

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Posted (edited)

Change the engine design? Block off an existing system because you know better? Sure, and don't forget the self brain surgery.

I am an engineer for an OEM, and constantly see the logic applied by darn smart people to out think the engineers who design, build and support their complex products. It is amusing. 

I guarantee you more engines fail because the user didn't put enough oil in, as compared to the engines that fail because the oil injection didn't work. Remember, the prime cause of engine failure, by 3 to 1 factor, is that the pilot put too much air in the fuel tanks.

Yeah and engineer and oem aren't necessarily a good thing either . I used to do contract work for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed and Nasa to name a few. Several times us so called builder's had to tell the engineer there stuff isn't going to work . They would argue and throw a fit . We proved to them time and time again that there is a thing called over engineered. Taking something already complex and making it worse by adding more stuff to it . If people don't mix there oil and fuel right that's on them , theres ratio cups that are easy to use. If you wanna be a a$$ do it to someone who hasn't seen a desk jockey engineer have to swallow his pride and walk away on numerous occasions where his so called design was the best thing since sliced bread. Look at all the new piece of crap cars we have . They might as well be computers it makes no sense to have that much crap to run a simple spark , air and fuel engine . 

I'm with you on this - I couldn't count the times I had to tell an "engineer" that his plans or drawings wouldn't work.  We only had one "engineer" with a ME degree, and he was about the dumbest of the lot of them.   Most of the time they would come to the machine shop and tell a Toolmaker what they wanted and we would design and make it and they would go back to their office and take credit for it.  EDMO

Edmo you and I both , every engineer looks at us builders as unedjimicated fux that don't now anything . Meanwhile the engineers can design complete garbage and be totally right in the eyes of himself. There is use for engineers in some things though . Us builders can use them as shields when the zombies come hahaa.

I am sure that there are competent engineers in the world - Just not where I worked!  Our Assistant Plant Manager who had a Business degree would come to me with ideas that were more practical then the engineers could dream up.  There were a few years we were making cars that were 1" shorter on one side than the other, and no one could figure out why the parts didn't fit!    EDMO

Edited by EDMO
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Posted

Change the engine design? Block off an existing system because you know better? Sure, and don't forget the self brain surgery.

I am an engineer for an OEM, and constantly see the logic applied by darn smart people to out think the engineers who design, build and support their complex products. It is amusing. 

I guarantee you more engines fail because the user didn't put enough oil in, as compared to the engines that fail because the oil injection didn't work. Remember, the prime cause of engine failure, by 3 to 1 factor, is that the pilot put too much air in the fuel tanks.

Yeah and engineer and oem aren't necessarily a good thing either . I used to do contract work for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed and Nasa to name a few. Several times us so called builder's had to tell the engineer there stuff isn't going to work . They would argue and throw a fit . We proved to them time and time again that there is a thing called over engineered. Taking something already complex and making it worse by adding more stuff to it . If people don't mix there oil and fuel right that's on them , theres ratio cups that are easy to use. If you wanna be a a$$ do it to someone who hasn't seen a desk jockey engineer have to swallow his pride and walk away on numerous occasions where his so called design was the best thing since sliced bread. Look at all the new piece of crap cars we have . They might as well be computers it makes no sense to have that much crap to run a simple spark , air and fuel engine . 

I'm with you on this - I couldn't count the times I had to tell an "engineer" that his plans or drawings wouldn't work.  We only had one "engineer" with a ME degree, and he was about the dumbest of the lot of them.   Most of the time they would come to the machine shop and tell a Toolmaker what they wanted and we would design and make it and they would go back to their office and take credit for it.  EDMO

Edmo you and I both , every engineer looks at us builders as unedjimicated fux that don't now anything . Meanwhile the engineers can design complete garbage and be totally right in the eyes of himself. There is use for engineers in some things though . Us builders can use them as shields when the zombies come hahaa.

I am sure that there are competent engineers in the world - Just not where I worked!  Our Assistant Plant Manager who had a Business degree would come to me with ideas that were more practical then the engineers could dream up.  There were a few years we were making cars that were 1" shorter on one side than the other, and no one could figure out why the parts didn't fit!    EDMO

sounds about right . Did you guys get the blame for it being short on one side ? 

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Posted

Change the engine design? Block off an existing system because you know better? Sure, and don't forget the self brain surgery.

I am an engineer for an OEM, and constantly see the logic applied by darn smart people to out think the engineers who design, build and support their complex products. It is amusing. 

I guarantee you more engines fail because the user didn't put enough oil in, as compared to the engines that fail because the oil injection didn't work. Remember, the prime cause of engine failure, by 3 to 1 factor, is that the pilot put too much air in the fuel tanks.

Yeah and engineer and oem aren't necessarily a good thing either . I used to do contract work for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed and Nasa to name a few. Several times us so called builder's had to tell the engineer there stuff isn't going to work . They would argue and throw a fit . We proved to them time and time again that there is a thing called over engineered. Taking something already complex and making it worse by adding more stuff to it . If people don't mix there oil and fuel right that's on them , theres ratio cups that are easy to use. If you wanna be a a$$ do it to someone who hasn't seen a desk jockey engineer have to swallow his pride and walk away on numerous occasions where his so called design was the best thing since sliced bread. Look at all the new piece of crap cars we have . They might as well be computers it makes no sense to have that much crap to run a simple spark , air and fuel engine . 

I'm with you on this - I couldn't count the times I had to tell an "engineer" that his plans or drawings wouldn't work.  We only had one "engineer" with a ME degree, and he was about the dumbest of the lot of them.   Most of the time they would come to the machine shop and tell a Toolmaker what they wanted and we would design and make it and they would go back to their office and take credit for it.  EDMO

Edmo you and I both , every engineer looks at us builders as unedjimicated fux that don't now anything . Meanwhile the engineers can design complete garbage and be totally right in the eyes of himself. There is use for engineers in some things though . Us builders can use them as shields when the zombies come hahaa.

I am sure that there are competent engineers in the world - Just not where I worked!  Our Assistant Plant Manager who had a Business degree would come to me with ideas that were more practical then the engineers could dream up.  There were a few years we were making cars that were 1" shorter on one side than the other, and no one could figure out why the parts didn't fit!    EDMO

sounds about right . Did you guys get the blame for it being short on one side ? 

Not for that one - Some design engineer in Detroit must have dropped his sliderule when making the prints for the dies.   Sometimes we would get some prints that looked like a 6th grader drew them - some lines went nowhere.     EDMO 

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Posted (edited)

Great thread guys! Where does your disdain for people who create the item end? Fly 200 degrees above the red lines? Overhaul the engine and leave out a few of those pesky parts?  Please don't let the fact that Rotax engineers built, tested, qualified, sold and supported 175,000 aircraft engines confuse your genius understanding of what they don't know. Just warn your passengers that you are smarter than them.

Edited by nlappos
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Posted

Funny you think you know anyones level of expertise . It ends when engineers stop acting like they are the only ones right.

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Would that be the same engineers who also designed the block off plate and wrote instructions giving the end user the option of not using their near perfect design? 

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I'm glad you brought this to the attention of nlappos, In this particular case the engineers at Rotax are offering to use their product with or without this option and a fellow builder is just getting info on how others have removed this optional product.

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Posted (edited)

Well sometimes I'm the bad guy and I could really care less what he says about it . Rotax made the option to run with or without oil injection so I guess we're idiots for taking the option to remove a part that could fail and they know it . Oh and btw if NASA trusted me to build parts for the space station that have kept them alive for the past 5 years they must be idiots too ? Again just because someone doesn't have a engineering degree doesn't mean a thing . I've been building aircraft for over 20 years and never had a problem . 

I'm glad you brought this to the attention of nlappos, In this particular case the engineers at Rotax are offering to use their product with or without this option and a fellow builder is just getting info on how others have removed this optional product.

 

Would that be the same engineers who also designed the block off plate and wrote instructions giving the end user the option of not using their near perfect design? 

 

Edited by chopndrag
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Posted

Great thread guys! Where does your disdain for people who create the item end? Fly 200 degrees above the red lines? Overhaul the engine and leave out a few of those pesky parts?  Please don't let the fact that Rotax engineers built, tested, qualified, sold and supported 175,000 aircraft engines confuse your genius understanding of what they don't know. Just warn your passengers that you are smarter than them.

Ford engineers designed an built millions of cars, but they still came out with the Molotov Pinto.  Navistar designed and built hundreds of thousands of diesel engines, but they still came out with the Ford 6.0.  Engineers ok'd the Challenger liftoff as well.  Engineers are human, make mistakes, and others pay for those mistakes.  They are far from perfect.

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First off with help from my neighbor (who builds exhaust systems and parts for Rotax Rick) I converted a 670 for my Kitfox. We did not use oil injection. You also need to plug the injection nipples. We just put a dab of solder in each they can also be pinched off.

The engineer issue is close to my heart. I worked as a tooling and equipment designer at Thiokol for 31 years. The operations folks saw me as an engineer. Thou I was was not degreed I worked as an engineer. The biggest issue was being able to understand what was really needed. Yes people are human. But bad mouthing usually comes from not understanding each others point of view.

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Posted (edited)

Great thread guys! Where does your disdain for people who create the item end? Fly 200 degrees above the red lines? Overhaul the engine and leave out a few of those pesky parts?  Please don't let the fact that Rotax engineers built, tested, qualified, sold and supported 175,000 aircraft engines confuse your genius understanding of what they don't know. Just warn your passengers that you are smarter than them.

Ford engineers designed an built millions of cars, but they still came out with the Molotov Pinto.  Navistar designed and built hundreds of thousands of diesel engines, but they still came out with the Ford 6.0.  Engineers ok'd the Challenger liftoff as well.  Engineers are human, make mistakes, and others pay for those mistakes.  They are far from perfect.

Hey, That Pinto was a good car, especially when it has a Buick V6 in it like my daughters scoot car - would take a dragster to hit it in the rear!   I guess you could call it "Experimental"?  But, again, we aren't "City" folks!  :lol:  EDMO

Edited by EDMO
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