Blocking off the Oil Injector 582

[Ramos 62]

My experience has been that there are good and bad folks in every profession. Judging any one of them as great, or horrible, rarely yield results with high accuracy.

 

That being said, I wish engineering school included designing, assembling and maintaining one's own creation as part of their final exam. Of course, I also wish every technician would be evaluated on their diagnostic skills. Too many 'parts changers' out there that only know the shotgun approach to repairs.

 

Just my two one hundredths of a dollar.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Great thread guys! I just recently started flying a powered parachute that has injection. I found myself watching the oil tank like a hawk. It also makes me really nervous when it doesn't smoke when it's cold. Neither of my Avid's have injection but I'm tempted to add it back on to my MK4 that has the Poly tanks because there's really no way to mix oil in the tanks while X-country like I do with my B model. Granted I only do that a couple times a year so I'm also just thinking about getting a collapsible 5 gallon jug and mixing and pouring like usual. 

[chopndrag 226]

Great thread guys! I just recently started flying a powered parachute that has injection. I found myself watching the oil tank like a hawk. It also makes me really nervous when it doesn't smoke when it's cold. Neither of my Avid's have injection but I'm tempted to add it back on to my MK4 that has the Poly tanks because there's really no way to mix oil in the tanks while X-country like I do with my B model. Granted I only do that a couple times a year so I'm also just thinking about getting a collapsible 5 gallon jug and mixing and pouring like usual. 

I still have the complete oil injection kit from my mkIV . Has the pump and gigantic oil tank . 

[james miller 3]

Nope just the system itself . All I did with mine was remove the tank ,cable and hoses . I left my injection in because of it being a pain in the ass because of the position.

I too removed the oil injection, lines, pump and gear.

fabricated a block off plate. took about 2 hours, but I'm slow.

rotax rick suggested to remove everything.

Jim

[Turbo 162]

So how many welders, machinists, mechanics etc. would it take to design something like a Boeing 787 and make it successful economically?  Build it, heck yeah, but design is a completely different endeavor.  Hey, as an engineer myself I have also seen my share of dumb engineers, and face it: we all make mistakes from time to time.  But I also have met and worked with true geniuses and have been awed with their intellectual prowess.  People are people, however, Nlappos makes a good point.  There are instances in which only detailed understanding of the physics, and an ability to accurately model same mathematically are absolutely critical for a design concept to be successful.  It's easy to nip at our heels, but can you really claim to walk in our shoes?  For relatively simple things, sure, no stress, thermodynamic, heat transfer or aerodynamic analyses required.  By the way, the engineering specialist on challenger said don't fly; it was the politicians who overrode him.  

[Bandit 286]

All kinds of engines running without oil pumps. I removed mine years ago. Unbolt the pump from the recoil and take the nylon gear off and you are good to go. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to premix fuel.  It was designed to work either way. Why then would one take a 582 and make it into a 670 ? Far more risks than premixing fuel I think, but then I am not a engineer.

[Bandit 286]

Is there a drive gear or shaft that gets removed?

Yes

[zadwit 105]

The early oil injection pumps on snow machines in Alaska had a metal drive gear and those would wear out and quit turning. YOu only found out after the engine seized!!

Rotax uses a nylon drive gear and there has been no further problems....I too removed my oil injection system for this reason..

There are already too many single point failure systems on these Avids and Kitfoxes....IF you loose your coolant, stick a fork in it, because you are done!! Rotax 503 dont have this issue..dont have the power the 582 has either....

582 has rotary drive shaft and if any part of that fails guess what? your done again!! stick another fork in it..

 

If the cable to the oil pump breaks you wont figure it out til it seizes....Hell it might seize anyway if you dont warm it up enough.....

 

If a person was doing a lot of cross countries, oil injection would be nice because when you land, you never really know how much fuel is left in the tank so you dont really know how much to mix and dump in unless you take collapsible fuel tank.

I am a firm believer in removing all the "single point failure" systems you can or add redundancy to the plane to make it more robust and reliable

I would venture to say that most use these kitfoxs and avids for local flying and so long cross countries are not the normal flight plan.

The RV in the back corner of the hangar is for that!!

 

 

[Turbo 162]

So maybe those Rotax engineers used a plastic gear to drive the oil injection pump in anticipation of users failing to remove it when reverting to premix mode.  When the oil injection's piston pump eventually seizes due to lack of lubrication, the plastic gear acts as a mechanical fuse, failing, but allowing the engine to continue to run!  Smart, eh?

[Turbo 162]

Seems like this thread has gone cold.  I finally have the bird in hand (well, garage really), and am preparing to, among other things, put the oil injection system back in play.  The Rotax engine diagrams appear to indicate that if you try to take off the oil pump, the nylon gear is too big to extract through the hole.  Is this true?  In my case, the pump was not removed when the engine was set up for pre-mix.  The oil inlet tube is sealed off, that's all.  There's a crack in one of the injection lines, so I will have to replace them.  Are these lines just 3/32" tygon spaghetti tubing, or urethane?  Can I expect the oil pump to still work?  I would think that the engine's internal oil fog might keep it from seizing.  

Of course, I'll bleed the system and run premix until I'm sure it's working.

[1avidflyer 1983]

I've used the tygon line when I've replaced the tubes.  Can't answer the other questions though.  JImChuk

[Dusty 126]

The injected engines have a 2 piece rotary valve cover,remove the outer cover to remove the oil pump gear. If the engine has been run for any length of time with no oil in the pump I wouldn't trust it.these pumps are easy to strip but a replacement pump would be a safer option.

[Turbo 162]

Thanks, guys!  

 

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

I have a pump with 58 hours TT. I took it off and put it in a clean ziplock bag. It was never ran on the plane without the oil system  hooked to it. If you think you need it let me know. I will send it to you. I have no use for it. 

[Turbo 162]

Hey, thanks NorthIdahoAvidFlyer!  I may take you up on this.   My first orders of business involve some kind of trim system, and cabin heat!  After that, I am keen to get the OI sytem up.  I have no idea what kind of shape my oil pump is in, and in fact don't know if there is any timing issue with the gearing.  Since it's a piston pump, one would think that it should squirt the oil just as the air/fuel mixture rushes in thru the carb.  Maybe it doesn't matter at all.  I just don't know.  Anyway, thanks for your generous offer.  I'll let you know.

[nlappos 413]

I have a 6 quart tank and mount if you need it. Any reasonable price and it's yours.

[Turbo 162]

Thanks, NLappos, but I have a good oil tank.  Actually I have two of them, but only one appears to fit easily in between the frame tubes.  This is weird, since they look identical.  Man, is everything a tight fit in these birds!

[Turbo 162]

O.K., so new question:  I'd like to take the oil pump off so I can inspect and test it.  That includes the plastic drive gear.  I hear there's a second cover plate that comes off so the gear can be removed.  If I take this off, am I going to affect the rotary valve and its lubrication?  I have no idea how the rotary valve lubrication works, but I understand the layout.  I don't want to end up having to take the engine off so I can refill the rotary valve's oil tank and lines without leaving a fatal air bubble in the line.  The Avid's engine is plugs-down.  Thanks in advance, guys!

[Turbo 162]

Shockaroo!  No plastic gear behind the panel/flange.  Lots of 2-stroke oil escaped when I cracked it open, indicating that a few squirts of same when installing the gear and pump will be in order. Looks like I'll be running premix for now.  Hey Vance, does your offer still stand? Might that include the plastic drive gear?  I'm game enough to make a road trip out of picking the parts up in Post Falls; that way I get to meet you in person!  Just a short trip from the gorge.

I'm moving closer to a condition inspection then first flight.  Exciting times!

Best regards to all,  Art

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

Yes Sir it does. If you mean the plastic gear that bolted onto the pump then yes. Here is a picture is the whole pump with gear. Would love to have you stop by. I’ll be moving all the airplane stuff from home to the new hangar May 1st.