Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

How to tell if it's a MKIV

40 posts in this topic

Posted

What are the things to look for? How do I tell if it's a MKIV vs others?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

What are the things to look for? How do I tell if it's a MKIV vs others?

This should help...

Theoretically MkIV's came into effect at kit ser # 1000 BUT it was

more like 1100---have the details somewhere.

Anyway....some work for you ---tee hee heee.

Does it have the Taildragger gear legs with the step?

Does it have a 1/1/2" Tailspring necked down to take a MAULE Tailwheel?

Does it have Elevator with inset trim Tab?

Does it have Round Rudder?

Does it have Dorsal steel stringer---i.e Fin tube goes to the T'Deck

FIN NOT OFFSET

Does it have a baggage locker?

Does it have Gas strut fixings just behind left shoulder in fuse frame?

Does it have Triangular steel welded gussets in EACH corner of the

"quarterlight window" one gusset is Seat Belt Anchor point.

Does it have Fiberglass seat?

Does it have Spring Loaded Door latches?

Does it have Gusset from Top rear carry thru tube, L&R, outside the

fuse side frame, welded to the rear Spar Bolt attach bushing---a bit

like a shelf bracket.

Does it have two Strap like Plates welded on Rear Wing Carry thru tube

to inside of rear door post?

Are ends of Wing Carry thru tubes welded closed?

Does it have two plates for Fuel Tap behind Vernier Throttle mounting

plate?

Are there "glue plates" welded at rear of fuse where inspection plate

could be fitted for theelevator Push Pull Tube Clevis Fork end they

Go from Fuse to Fin Spar.

Are fuselage tubes at this point sort of splayed /opened out for

greater Bolt clearance?

There are a couple of other subtle points that can't be checked unless

tubes cut -- as Avid upgraded some Tube wall thicknesses to get Gross

up to 1150/1200lbs.

BUT These should keep you busy for a short while---

and Send everybody with a "MKIV" running to check!!! heee heee..

Have fun,

Regards,

Steve at Airdale...

Also...

Looking at our log book (Airdale's) it shows your SN 1388C as

a C Model STOL TD. The serial numbers before, back to about SN 1025 are listed

as MKIVs but with a D after the number (as your's has a C). The serial numbers

after yours are also listed as D's with the designation of MkIV etc. Hope this

doesn't muddy the water more.

Jerry at Airdale

Edited by dholly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The easiest way to tell is probably whether or not it has the baggage compt behind the seat and a round rudder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

<br />The easiest way to tell is probably whether or not it has the baggage compt behind the seat and a round rudder.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

not necessarily, mine has baggage behind seat and round rudder... but it is still a "C"

The serial number would be the best way. get the # then call brett at airdale and ask him to double check if the paperwork etc does not readily tell you what it is.

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Thanks! what a great group if any of you are ever around Indianapolis give me a heads up, I'll buy you lunch. :brownoser:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

<br /><br /><br />

not necessarily, mine has baggage behind seat and round rudder... but it is still a "C"

The serial number would be the best way. get the # then call brett at airdale and ask him to double check if the paperwork etc does not readily tell you what it is.

:BC:

I stand corrected...was not aware of that. What's the difference between yours a IV then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

<br />I stand corrected...was not aware of that. What's the difference between yours a IV then?<br />

Not much. When mine was built, it had most of the Mk IV upgrades, then I did a few more when I rebuilt it. The main difference in mine now is the door latches, motor mount and cowling. I still have the "C" cowling till I can free up some funds to complete my upgrades! I am sure I will be going to the MK IV cowling when I get the new engine built up as I will need more room under the hood for the exhaust etc. Should be starting on the engine mods mid next week, atleast getting the adapter for the gear box machined etc.

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Joey, experimental kit and home building always leads to individual builder modifications and tweaks etc... I think it's inevitable some of the latest and greatest Avid upgrades found their way to older models as owners continued to tinker. Not to mention early Mk-IVs did not incorporate all the Mk-IV upgrades listed, depending on manufacture date. For example, while the later Mk-IVs had them, my Mk-IV S/N 1127D did not have the rear carry thru gussets in place when sold from the factory so they were added after the fact (pic). Plus, Avid itself sent out many 'unusual' iterations containing parts from different models at times depending on inventory. That's why I posted the whole list and S/N's. Leni's suggestion to call Airdale with a S/N is great if you have it, otherwise the more pieces of the puzzle a buyer can put together the higher confidence they will have it is a true Mk-IV from the factory.

post-53-12681855682746_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What did you end up getting? You been in touch with Snaps yet? His 670 powered Avid Float plane is awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What did you end up getting? You been in touch with Snaps yet? His 670 powered Avid Float plane is awesome.

07 arctic cat 800 that my nephew wrapped around a tree.... Should put the 670 to shame in a big way, reliably

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

07 arctic cat 800 that my nephew wrapped around a tree.... Should put the 670 to shame in a big way, reliably

:BC:

Leni if you can use the Kitfox 4 engine mount for your new motor build I still have it.It has the new style 582 side mounts but you may be able to make it work.You pay the freight up there and you can have it.I doubt I will ever use it. Randy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Leni if you can use the Kitfox 4 engine mount for your new motor build I still have it.It has the new style 582 side mounts but you may be able to make it work.You pay the freight up there and you can have it.I doubt I will ever use it. Randy

If he doesn't want it I might, what would you want for it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

If he doesn't want it I might, what would you want for it?

I was going to sell it at first but if someone really needs it you pay the freight and its yours.It came with my 582 when I bought it and it wont work on my Skyraider.If Leni doesnt want it for his engine build then let me know and its yours.Randy

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I was going to sell it at first but if someone really needs it you pay the freight and its yours.It came with my 582 when I bought it and it wont work on my Skyraider.If Leni doesnt want it for his engine build then let me know and its yours.Randy

I dont think it would work for me. I am not sure if the firewall pattern is the same or not. I would probably be better off just starting from scratch as the new engine has exhaust and intake on the same side etc... But thanks for the offer!

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I was going to sell it at first but if someone really needs it you pay the freight and its yours.It came with my 582 when I bought it and it wont work on my Skyraider.If Leni doesnt want it for his engine build then let me know and its yours.Randy

Well I'm waiting for the man with the avid to send me some more pics to see if its worth the drive to go and see, also been looking at a kitfox 4 kit but he wants too much (in my humble opinion) if I decide on the kit fox I'll give you a shout. I don't know if it would work on the avid or not?????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ok here's the scoop from the guy with the Avid, why would he have to "bend" the cross over tubes???? what do you guys think?

(complete fuselage with landing gear mounted

wings covered in ceconite thru nitrate (14' long)

aluminum flaperons

rudder, stabilizer, elevator covered with ceconite thru nitrate

Subaru E-81 engine with belt reduction, alternator, and starter

twin electronic ignitions

3-bladed Warp drive prop

radiator for engine

fiberglass top and bottom cowling from other aircraft

removable turtle deck made with composites

tailwheel

fiberglass interior seat and cloth

firewall

new fiberglass panel

lexan material for windshield and side windows.

doors

airspeed, altimeter, oil pressure and temp, tachometer, hour meter

fabric to complete fuselage.

nitrate and butyrate coatings to finish project

4 gallons of butyrate paint Daytona White

AN hardware to finish project

electric servo trim control which I purchased extra

two complete instruction manuals with pictures

builder's log

To complete the plane, you will need to buy some finishing tapes, more paint, maybe a few nuts and bolts,

here are some other details so there are no surprises

1. I had to bend the front wing attach crossover tube slightly to get the wing bolts to fit. It was professionally reinforced (welded). It won't be visible on the completed airplane. I meant to take a picture of it but I forgot. I can still get one.

2. The Subaru motor mount will have to be modified. It came from a later model which had a deeper fuselage. The bottom attach points on the motor mount will have to be raised to fit the airframe. You could talk to Steve Winder at Airdale Aircraft company for more information.

I would recommend that you buy just the plane kit minus the engine. In my opinion, the engine is a bit heavy for the plane. The recommended engine originally was a Rotax 582. I will sell just the plane kit for $7,500. I have a total of about $13,000 invested so far plus hundreds of hours of labor. )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

well I would say that someplace along the line, the jig for the avid fuse was changed as the guys building the fat avids that were going to use their existing wings had to bend the tubes on the fuse to make them fit the wings also. I know that Jack and Randy both had to "modify" the wing attach points on their planes to make the wings fit. I know they both talked to Steve Winder at length about it and that was the recommendation from the factory. I would not let it scare me away from the plane.

have the guy take some pictures of it and post them up so we can see if this was the same issue that Randy and Jack had.

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Steve Winder is gone. Talk to Brett at Airdale with questions. Get some photos and share them with Brett with your questions.

I would be conserned with "Bending" the carry through tubes to make the wings fit. This fuselage was built and welded in a jig. Unless something else is bent or ??, it should go together without need of bending or more welding. Get some photos of this and share that with Brett for his opinion before you make a decision...

IMO - He's right. The Subaru engine is too heavy for a good performing Avid.

(Leni - I've worked with the welding jig for the Avid/Fat Avid Fuselage at Airdale. I don't follow why that tube would need to be "Bent" other than something else is out of position.)

Edited by Av8r3400

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

well I would say that someplace along the line, the jig for the avid fuse was changed as the guys building the fat avids that were going to use their existing wings had to bend the tubes on the fuse to make them fit the wings also. I know that Jack and Randy both had to "modify" the wing attach points on their planes to make the wings fit. I know they both talked to Steve Winder at length about it and that was the recommendation from the factory. I would not let it scare me away from the plane.

have the guy take some pictures of it and post them up so we can see if this was the same issue that Randy and Jack had.

:BC:

Leni-

No jig change. It's the same 27-1/2" (IIRC) front to rear bushing, center to center. I measured both my Mk-IV and Fat Avid and they were exactly the same within a knat's hair. Also, I had -zero- trouble mounting wings to my Fat Avid. The only difference between my and Jack and Randy's Fat Avid experience is that I built new wings. IMHO, the 'issues' both Jack and Randy faced were primarily related to fitting their existing wings to the Fat Avid fuse. Their wings were already built, doublers installed, pin holes drilled and fitted to their old plane's personal head rack carry through tube and bushing angle characteristics. Even if each Avid and Fat Avid frame was built on a jig, I think there is still a high probability weld creep etc. makes each one slightly different. And it certainly doesn't take much off to be a complete show stopper when it comes to pinning spars with no slop allowed. In any event, I doubt any two planes would be EXACTLY alike, so I suspect trying to fit wings from one Avid to another will likely never be a perfect plug and play. Some adjustment will be necessary and if you don't want to install new doublers and drill more holes in your spar, I guess the alternative is to get out a torch and persuade the carry through tube and bushing to meet up with your existing spar holes. Just glad I didn't have to deal with that.

racegunz-

Based on the seller comment, not sure if this plane you're looking at is a partially finished rebuild project or an uncompleted new build? If a rebuild project, I would bet a pile of doughnuts the wings on it are not original. Which leads me to wonder why were the originals replaced... bent in an accident or ground loop?? Or if this is a brand new build, seems like the wings were not built to the instructions in the manual. Perhaps the wings were not attached before the wing tanks were 'glassed in' and the spars ended up more than the correct f/r width. That leads to deeper questions regarding builder competency and puts more than wings into question. I would look the wings over thoroughly and put a tape on all critical measures including wing twist and flapperon tail hinges etc. I would also ask some hard questions why it was necessary and check that carry through tube modification very carefully.

I found the Sube mount comment interesting. The only thing I can come up with is that the vertical firewall height of the A-C models vs. the Mk-IV and Fat Avid were different. I don't know that to be the case but, assuming that's correct, if the engine mount was originally used on a Mk-IV and held up to an earlier model (which is it you are looking at?), it makes sense the lower legs would be too long. I've attached a pic from the 'old' Airdale that shows the firewall attach stations for a Sube engine mount on, I believe, a Mk-IV. Maybe that helps some. Everything I hear and read suggests the Sube is a heavy engine for a Mk-IV, and too much in the earlier Avids for safe CG without adding a lot of tail weight. Of course, in the experimental world there are several flying and almost anything goes, but you might be wise to reflect on both Jack and Randy's personal experience as Avid owners and ultimate decision to upgrade to a Fat Avid fuse when choosing to fly Sube.

post-53-12687058094515_thumb.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Steve Winder is gone. Talk to Brett at Airdale with questions. Get some photos and share them with Brett with your questions.

I would be conserned with "Bending" the carry through tubes to make the wings fit. This fuselage was built and welded in a jig. Unless something else is bent or ??, it should go together without need of bending or more welding. Get some photos of this and share that with Brett for his opinion before you make a decision...

IMO - He's right. The Subaru engine is too heavy for a good performing Avid.

(Leni - I've worked with the welding jig for the Avid/Fat Avid Fuselage at Airdale. I don't follow why that tube would need to be "Bent" other than something else is out of position.)

Dont know what to tell you on that one.. I can tell you for certain that the two guys up here that got the fat avid fuses had to bend the front carry through to make the existing wings from a MK IV and a C HH fit the fuse. Both are well documented and there was a line of communication with Avid/Airdale discussing the issue. I am sure that it has now been corrected. There were quite a few issues with the buy this fuse and just transfer all your stuff over from your existing plane. Control columns needed to be extended, wings did not line up etc. These issues are shown on this forum under the fat avid threads.

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

:BC:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Good discussion. I don't know what to say about the ability to exchange wings from different Avids but I know that the amount that Jack and I had to bend our forward carry through tube was very close to the same, which made us think our Avid wings are very similar. There are going to be slight differences in the wing build and drilling for the pins so I am sure it would be difficult to switch them and get the pins and bolts in but they are very close, and our Avid+ fuselages were very close to the same dimensions but did not fit the wings.

When I talked to Steve Windner about how to fix it he said to bend the front carry through tube, just be sure not to use too much heat; just cherry red. I built a jig off of my Avid fuselage by dropping long bolts through the pin tubes and welded the heads to a peice of square steel tube. I built a bending fork from pipe that fit over the carry through tube of the Avid+ and notched it to fit around the pin tubes. This gave me the leverage to bend the carry through tube ends and align the pin tubes until the jigs dropped in place. The final test was mounting the wings.

Steve said that they would be fine left like that but if I was worried about it, to weld tabs between the pin tube and frame. I did that for my own peace of mind. I attached pictures of the tube ends after they were done.

As far as Avids with the Sube engine, one of the guys up here has one, a MkIV on floats. I have never flown it but hope to get a chance to this summer. It does have quite a bit of lead in the back of the floats and on the tail spring. It was one of the main reasons for me to build the Avid+, since I wanted to use the Sube and was going to have my Avid streched until Steve talked me into the Avid+ fusalage.

Back on track; if the work on the Avid you are looking at looks like it was well done, I obviously would not consider it a problem.

Randy

post-75-12687125190373_thumb.jpg

post-75-1268712557955_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Just for clarity, are you talking about the rotational orientation of the carry-through tube or bending the tube to make it "V" or "U" (exaggerated) shaped?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

thanks guys, lots to consider, the kit ofx kit is looking like the better deal right now, but i haven;t "seen" either one of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Randy-

I notice on your Avid+ that the position of the pin bushings in the carry through tubes is different than mine. Hardly any of the bushing on mine is above the carry through tube. Very different. The bushings on my Mk-IV looked the same as my Avid+. I wonder why yours are different regarding bushing height? Now I'm curious what your Mk-IV looks like? Or Jack's C model?

post-53-12687885298654_thumb.jpg

post-53-12687886158299_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0