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KItfox 1 vs KitfoxIV tail section size


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Posted

I see on the early Kitfox 1 the tail was rather small and have heard that the plane needed constant attention to keep it going straight and that  the flaperons had high amount of adverse yaw,

But I also realize the Kitfox 1 and maybe the two had the fuel  tank in the nose so that is a fair amount of weight fwd of the CG.

Did the flying CG move aft when kitfox started putting wing tanks in and removing the nose tank?

Does the smaller tail present control proplems, ie do you run out of rudder and elevator authority at slow speeds? Can you install a bigger rudder, fin and elevator to correct this?

THanks, Mark SMith in Davenport

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Posted (edited)

I see on the early Kitfox 1 the tail was rather small and have heard that the plane needed constant attention to keep it going straight and that  the flaperons had high amount of adverse yaw,

But I also realize the Kitfox 1 and maybe the two had the fuel  tank in the nose so that is a fair amount of weight fwd of the CG.

Did the flying CG move aft when kitfox started putting wing tanks in and removing the nose tank?

Does the smaller tail present control proplems, ie do you run out of rudder and elevator authority at slow speeds? Can you install a bigger rudder, fin and elevator to correct this?

THanks, Mark SMith in Davenport

YES to all your questions above -  I can get some measurements, but the Kitfox 4 VS and rudder are either 52 or 54" tall, and both are wider chord - same goes for the HS and elevator, except span stayed the same - I enlarged chords on all 6 parts by about 6" each on my Subaru nose-dragger - Probably 4" would help.  Even that can be improved upon, just look at the tail on Av8r3400's "Mangy Fox" which was a standard Classic 4 - the horns on the elevator don't show much in this photo, but they are like the rudder, and should be balanced.

 The adverse yaw was corrected on the Model 4 by making differential aileron controls.  They even made a conver$ion kit for the Model 3.   Hope this helps - If you need more info, just ask - bet some others will have info on this too. 

I have been "Kitfoxing" since Model 1 - Sorry I missed out on the original Avids.  EDMO

Works and looks good...

Tail.thumb.jpg.bf883806ba95e7eba9ce56bdc

 

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

My 3 has the small tail which I assume is similar to your 1.  The adverse yaw only becomes a problem on a long cross country in turbulence  as I am working all the time to keep the ball centered. The later  mixer could possibly minimise this.

I don't see much difference in xwind ability with my big tail 4 unless I three point which isn't advisable with the smaller rudder which is blanked in wing turbulence. The taller tail isn't affected as much.

My 3 has the small wing tanks but if it had the big tanks inertia may factor into the tail swing(my brother has a 4 with the small tail but big tanks and is definatly more wandery in the tail)

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Posted

I have flown the I and II with the smaller tail on wheels skis and floats.  Never had an issue with them in any configuration.  Yes there is adverse yaw, yes you have to use your feet, no its not an issue and I never ran out of control.  The earlier models can use the F7A upgrade that came out for the Avid to help get rid of some of the adverse yaw.  We did that on a buddies mod I.  These earlier models were much lighter and in my opinion "sportier" in the stol department.  Tape the gap on the elevator and you get all the authority you need.

:BC:

 

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Posted

This is great info GUys. I belong to the Ridge Runner group and there is very little if any info out there on the ridge runner and Sky raider is out of business so I have had to learn everything the  hard way. Had enough, selling the Ridge Runner 1, its on barnstormers and looking for a Kit fox model 1,2,3 or IV.Cant afford anything bigger than that. 582 would be nice to  have.. Ill wait on the the big king kong engine for a while and see how it shakes out.... my budget is  16,000 but if I have to I can go to to 20,000 but that is prutting me in a money bind pretty bad. Id have to bring it home and park it for a while.....til I sell the Ridge Runner...

 

Thanks again for the input. Im looking at the little Kitfox 1 that Jim Chuk had and also if  I can contact him, Thomas Jones in Ellensburg has a KitfoxIV with a 503 which is what I want for now, because  I have a spare new engine(503)  then later maybe upgrade to teh 582..but then it all depends on how  much they want. Jims is a kitfox 1 but Id be ok with that. Looks lilke he has worked all the bugs out of it so that is nice... Im an A&P (was IA for 30yrs), worked for flt standards for 10 yrs and retired.

..Thanks again, Mark

https://youtu.be/wxSj3WaNsMk   Here is a short video I took  of my Ridge Runner 1 this September. It was 85, at 2500 msl

 

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Posted

In Alaska years ago I was out on a short strip surrounded by stumps and on takeoff I missed on with the MLG but the lower flying wire got ripped off. I didnt know it until I was in the air... There is an airload normally pushing down on the tail and I know I hit something so was looking back and the tail looked fine but  if I pushed fwd just a little on the stickthe stablizer and elevator on one side would move up several inches so I didnt mess with it and went on home and landed.   If you ever loose the top flying wire on the tail, you would be in big trouble. I mention this because I see over the years some companies have eliminated the top flying wires and only have a lower tubular steel brace which is ok but prone to getting hit with rocks so it is worth keeping a close eye on it....The Sky Raiders had cables on the top and bottom,, a better deal I think.....

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Posted

This is great info GUys. I belong to the Ridge Runner group and there is very little if any info out there on the ridge runner and Sky raider is out of business so I have had to learn everything the  hard way. Had enough, selling the Ridge Runner 1, its on barnstormers and looking for a Kit fox model 1,2,3 or IV.Cant afford anything bigger than that. 582 would be nice to  have.. Ill wait on the the big king kong engine for a while and see how it shakes out.... my budget is  16,000 but if I have to I can go to to 20,000 but that is prutting me in a money bind pretty bad. Id have to bring it home and park it for a while.....til I sell the Ridge Runner...

 

Thanks again for the input. Im looking at the little Kitfox 1 that Jim Chuk had and also if  I can contact him, Thomas Jones in Ellensburg has a KitfoxIV with a 503 which is what I want for now, because  I have a spare new engine(503)  then later maybe upgrade to teh 582..but then it all depends on how  much they want. Jims is a kitfox 1 but Id be ok with that. Looks lilke he has worked all the bugs out of it so that is nice... Im an A&P (was IA for 30yrs), worked for flt standards for 10 yrs and retired.

..Thanks again, Mark

https://youtu.be/wxSj3WaNsMk   Here is a short video I took  of my Ridge Runner 1 this September. It was 85, at 2500 msl

 

I bought a Kitfox 1 from Jim a few years ago, I don't regret doing business with him, Great guy to have on your side. I had a 503 on my challenger but if I was buying another plane with a 2 cycle I would definitely go with the 582.

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Posted

Mark, I sent an email to your  email address.  JImChuk

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Posted

Sounds like a fun Xcountry flight to me!  Spend a few hundred and a day installing external tanks and you just added a couple hours flight time.

:BC:

 

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Posted

Also I will mention, I hate driving cross country so if  anyone is  coming from Minnesota, Jim  Chuks area, towards Spokane or  even within a few hundred miles, Id pay to have his plane hauled this way for me.....and I could bring it the rest of the way unless someone is driving near Spokane Washington.....I live in Davenport, 30 west of Spokane but I can drive 200-300 miles to pickup the plane, just  not sure  I want to drive all the way to Minn......Mark Smith  exfaa@outlook.com  907-378-9632

 

I tried to find  some of those other kitfoxes mentioned on CL but I am a little bit computer challenged.......Mark Smith

Not long ago I had two daughters living in Tacoma, one of which recently purchased a hobby farm north of Omak, where her husband is from. Unfortunately Uncle Sam has her flying out of South Carolina for a while. Other than that (and my old Dodge isn't allowed out in the winter salt) the road trip would sound good.

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Posted

Hoping Mark will post photos of the nice Kitfox 4 he just bought - and close to his home too!  He showed them to me on my messenger. 

Congrats on a Great buy!  EDMO

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Posted

It does look nice, close to home and at a good price.  Only has a 503, and at first glance I would say that's underpowered for a Kitfox 4, but after a couple of flights in the one in Pensecola Fl. last winter, I was really supprised how well it performed.  The owner wasn't afraid of it in the least either.  We were either flying over city, or tall trees, ocean or swamp most of the time we were flying in it. Performance was for sure helped by being at sea level, but it really did the job.  JImChuk

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