Testing Fabric

25 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Ran across this one the other day.  I know the earlier Kitfoxes and assume Avids used lightweight fabric.  Would the same criteria apply (as the table seems awful general and I believe the Cub and Champs use a medium weight fabric)?

Do you guys use a similar process and criteria for fabric test?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJveLrj45c&feature=youtu.be

Edited by LSaupe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I don't believe the E$pensive Maule tester has ever been approved for use by the FAA.  There are different methods of testing fabric that have been put forth, anywhere from using your thumb to sending a patch to a lab for testing, but there are FAA rules about how to test different fabrics written, probably starting with cotton and linen - Dacron was approved as a replacement fabric years ago and should last a lot longer.  I would not rely on a Utube video.   I don't think that the 1.7 ounce fabric has ever been approved on an STC for factory built planes, and it does not have the "certified" stamp on it.   Interesting too, that Maule has metal wings.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The sail cloth on these planes is about 5 oz. per yd.  I've seen the tester used on new sailcloth pieces, and when the tester punched through, it was like a 22 going off.  Amazing how much pressure it took to push that 1/16" pin through.  Most Kitfoxes and Avids are hangared, and the fabric will probably last the life of the plane that way if you use the right amount of UV protection in the covering process.  Sail cloth doesn't get the same UV treatment.  JImChuk

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I think the life of fabric is when you cant get the duct tape to stick on it?  Usually, just rejuvenate the cracking dope and fly it another 10 years.   ;<)   EDMO

Edited by EDMO
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

How about Oratex 600 lightweight or the Oratex 6000? I did some repair work on my BlackFox with Oratex, what an easy stuff to work with, my BlueFox will get covered with it.  And im waitin on my order of Oratex 6000 in White to cover the PA12.  And have u watched the burnin of the Oratex fabric? It puts its self out in a fire compaired to normal aircraft fabric, the say u can save 25-35lbs on a whole recover on a PA 18-PA12 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I used Oratex 600UL when rebuilding my Model C. Great to work with, good result. I did some stress tests before deciding to use it. If you go to my blog and filter the posts on Oratex you’ll find more info. I did some timelaps when covering parts of the plane that you can see on my YouTube channel.

Oratex 600 is certified for aircrafts up to 600 kg and 6000 for aircrafts up to, wéll you get the picture... I used 600 except for the landing gear where I used 6000. Probably overkill but as I had some 6000 samples...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The Stitts manual has directions on testing polyfiber fabric. They say you can use the Maul tester if a problem is suspected, but the real test is to cut a strip, strip the paint, then hang a weight from it. The strength shouldn't be lower than the equivalent cotton. I don't recall if there was a table of the different fabrics and expected strength - and the book is at the airport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I used Oratex 600UL when rebuilding my Model C. Great to work with, good result. I did some stress tests before deciding to use it. If you go to my blog and filter the posts on Oratex you’ll find more info. I did some timelaps when covering parts of the plane that you can see on my YouTube channel.

Oratex 600 is certified for aircrafts up to 600 kg and 6000 for aircrafts up to, wéll you get the picture... I used 600 except for the landing gear where I used 6000. Probably overkill but as I had some 6000 samples...

If you don't mind me asking what did it cost to cover you c model in Oratex?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hi Jared!

I don't mind you asking but I have a hard time to remember... and prices change both with time and between countries...
Oratex always appears very expensive as it is an "all in one" solution. A roll of traditional fabric is cheap while a roll of Oratex is in the "nice try, I'll call someone else" category. So when comparing don't forget all the other stuff like that you need for traditional methods (primers, UV, multiple layers of paint and finishing + the cost of having it done if you can't do the paint job yourself..). 

On my blog there is an article http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2016/01/how-much-oratex-do-i-need.html about the amount of material needed. Based on that you can check with your local Oratex supplier and get an up to date estimation of the cost.

As the process is perfectly "clean" and with nor smell or dust I did smaller parts in my office. If it is cold outside you can work with closed doors and the heat on as there are no nasty or inflammable evaporation, and if it is warm you can work outside...

Oratex is very easy to work with. While the finish is very good the result is not as perfect as when you come out of the paint box. I have the impression that it ages well (see Oratex stress testing post on my blog http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2011/09/side-note-stress-testing-oratex-ul-600.html).

If you value your time this is also an argument, you can easily cover both wings (from skeleton to ready to bolt on the plane) over a weekend.  

I hope this helps - even if I didn't answer your question directly...

 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I did not find the video boring at all.  And I sure wish I could have found fast workers like you when I had people working for me ;-)   Oh, it was speeded up?   :rolleyes: Seriously  though, real good video.  JImChuk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I believe someone did some research on prices of Oratex a long time ago, and you could get it shipped from England a lot cheaper than buying it from the guy in Alaska.   I think it is made in Germany.  Of course, money exchange rates vary often, and maybe the English "BRexit" may change that again.  EDMO

https://www.oracover.de/downloads2/LanitzAviation/Productinformation-Lanitz-Aviation%202013.EN.pdf

Edited by EDMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I believe someone did some research on prices of Oratex a long time ago, and you could get it shipped from England a lot cheaper than buying it from the guy in Alaska.   I think it is made in Germany.  Of course, money exchange rates vary often, and maybe the English "BRexit" may change that again.  EDMO

No point in going through England, I bought directly from Laniz Aviation / Oratex in Germanywww.lanitz-aviation.com https://www.lanitz-aviation.com/ (click the British flag to get the site in english), prices are in euros. They had no concerns selling directly to me rather than through the French (not very active) re seller.  They speak, read and write perfect english and are very responsive to mails.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

In Alaska, they try to double the price of everything - They try to blame "shipping costs".  My wife got a 25% COLA added to her Government pay, but my pension from Chrysler or hourly pay never increased enough for me to stay there.  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

To get all the fabric and all the tools to do the job on dads PA12 was $3892.40 for fabric, and $364.09 for the tools.  And that includes shippin to my door in Ester Alaska.  If u ask me i think the price was very fair and Paul and Larz in anchorage r good guys to deal with and the keep me informed as to when it will b headed my way.  When i first ordered the fabric they said it could take up to 6-8 weeks to get it released and then what time it takes to get it from there to here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hi Jared!

I don't mind you asking but I have a hard time to remember... and prices change both with time and between countries...
Oratex always appears very expensive as it is an "all in one" solution. A roll of traditional fabric is cheap while a roll of Oratex is in the "nice try, I'll call someone else" category. So when comparing don't forget all the other stuff like that you need for traditional methods (primers, UV, multiple layers of paint and finishing + the cost of having it done if you can't do the paint job yourself..). 

On my blog there is an article http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2016/01/how-much-oratex-do-i-need.html about the amount of material needed. Based on that you can check with your local Oratex supplier and get an up to date estimation of the cost.

As the process is perfectly "clean" and with nor smell or dust I did smaller parts in my office. If it is cold outside you can work with closed doors and the heat on as there are no nasty or inflammable evaporation, and if it is warm you can work outside...

Oratex is very easy to work with. While the finish is very good the result is not as perfect as when you come out of the paint box. I have the impression that it ages well (see Oratex stress testing post on my blog http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2011/09/side-note-stress-testing-oratex-ul-600.html).

If you value your time this is also an argument, you can easily cover both wings (from skeleton to ready to bolt on the plane) over a weekend.  

I hope this helps - even if I didn't answer your question directly...

 

Hi Jared!

I don't mind you asking but I have a hard time to remember... and prices change both with time and between countries...
Oratex always appears very expensive as it is an "all in one" solution. A roll of traditional fabric is cheap while a roll of Oratex is in the "nice try, I'll call someone else" category. So when comparing don't forget all the other stuff like that you need for traditional methods (primers, UV, multiple layers of paint and finishing + the cost of having it done if you can't do the paint job yourself..). 

On my blog there is an article http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2016/01/how-much-oratex-do-i-need.html about the amount of material needed. Based on that you can check with your local Oratex supplier and get an up to date estimation of the cost.

As the process is perfectly "clean" and with nor smell or dust I did smaller parts in my office. If it is cold outside you can work with closed doors and the heat on as there are no nasty or inflammable evaporation, and if it is warm you can work outside...

Oratex is very easy to work with. While the finish is very good the result is not as perfect as when you come out of the paint box. I have the impression that it ages well (see Oratex stress testing post on my blog http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2011/09/side-note-stress-testing-oratex-ul-600.html).

If you value your time this is also an argument, you can easily cover both wings (from skeleton to ready to bolt on the plane) over a weekend.  

I hope this helps - even if I didn't answer your question directly...

 

Hi Fred thanks for the reply. I really enjoy your videos. I think I may try the Oratex product, if anything  I will shave some weight. Thank you Thank you. I hope they can send me a color chart. cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Steve Henry just did his most recent Highlander the Yehaw 6 in Oratex. He had some nice videos on his Facebook page. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Just received four bids from Oraex, the cheapest option was $3400.:o That was Alaska,guess I will call the main branch over seas to see if I can get a better deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

If you go with uncertified fabric, you could do it for a bit under $2000 using poly fiber system.  35 yds fabric, 4 gallons each poly brush, spray, tone.  1 quart polytac.  Use lacquer thinner for thinner.   Plus tapes, or cut your own from the scraps off the wings and such.  More work though probably with the poly fiber.  JImChuk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Just received four bids from Oraex, the cheapest option was $3400.:o That was Alaska,guess I will call the main branch over seas to see if I can get a better deal.

Stewarts has an even easier way to glue fabric with no bad smells or chemicals.  Their UV coat sucks tho - can crinkle under the finish paint if you get fuel on inside, so after covering you can go to the Stitz-Poly products process to get a nice job done - Fabric and Finish should cost under $2000.    Lsaupe's beautiful bird was finished that way.  I think Jim Chuk found a cheaper MEK substitute for thinning dope at local Lowes or hardware store, so you don't have to pay shipping.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Using my own numbers from my blog (http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2016/01/how-much-oratex-do-i-need.html) :  24 meters of 900 mm wide and 9 meters of 1800 mm wide, all white UL 600, plus 2 liters of glue:

24 x 49.45 = 1187
9 x 89.95 = 809
2 x 77 = 154
(price as of today https://www.lanitz-aviation.com/entoilage/1)

Adds up to 2150 euros or 2528 $US, this is including 19%VAT but without shipping (you would not pay the 19% but would have to add your applicable VAT and obviously shipping)

You also need a good heat gun and an iron, both with reliable thermostats. 

However, it will cost you more than this as you will will be ready much sooner and therefore will fly and burn fuel while the others are still sniffing cheap hardware store thinner...

Edited by FredStork
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Using my own numbers from my blog (http://avidsimonini.blogspot.fr/2016/01/how-much-oratex-do-i-need.html) :  24 meters of 900 mm wide and 9 meters of 1800 mm wide, all white UL 600, plus 2 liters of glue:

24 x 49.45 = 1187
9 x 89.95 = 809
2 x 77 = 154
(price as of today https://www.lanitz-aviation.com/entoilage/1)

Adds up to 2150 euros or 2528 $US, this is including 19%VAT but without shipping (you would not pay the 19% but would have to add your applicable VAT and obviously shipping)

You also need a good heat gun and an iron, both with reliable thermostats. 

However, it will cost you more than this as you will will be ready much sooner and therefore will fly and burn fuel while the others are still sniffing cheap hardware store thinner...

Fred thanks for the help, I need a lot. Why does it look like in the beginning of you video the trailing edge of your wing is just a wire?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Jared,  I will jump in on this question but there are more knowledgeable Avid builders on here - I know more about Kitfoxes:  The earlier Avid models used a wire for the trailing edge - Maybe the MkIV was the first to change that to the aluminum trailing edges like Kitfox used from model 1 and up?  Dean Wilson designed the first Avid in a way that was cheaper for the homebuilder , such as wire trailing edge and tips made from tubing like the Pipers.  EDMO

Edited by EDMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ed is correct, it looks like a wire, because it is a wire... It is more delicate to cover but it looks really nice (if you like the old fashioned style...)  
I used a plastic covered steel wire

dsc07267.thumb.jpeg.8a05314aa58245d63373

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Roger That

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The earlier ones like mine looked like a batwing with the wire trailing edge. When I rebuilt mine I thought about going to a solid trailing edge but I liked the look. It was time consuming to tape! 

ACE7E362-799D-4258-954C-EC132D4336B3.jpeg

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now