Better Avid Gear

28 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

So after much talked about design changes etc. I am just on the brink of being ready to start fabing the new gear.  It will be a cub style gear but a lot more work and thought as well as number crunching has gone into the gear design than those previously brought to market.

I am on the fence trying to decide if I want to use springs on the struts or wrap the struts with bungee.  The springs are a fixed pressure and it is what it is.  The ride comfort will have a lot to do with tire size and pressure etc but no matter what, things going metal to metal and bending your plane should not be an issue.  I will beat the shit out of them on my bird first.  Using bungee it would be easier to "tune" your ride by adding a wrap if your going to be going someplace loaded really heavy, but taking a wrap off for your normal flying and lower weight to keep the ride softer.

Thoughts on what you would like to see on the gear?  I can offer it both ways as well just about as easy to fabricate either way.

:BC:

 

Edited by akflyer
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Posted

I like the idea of the bungees for the reduced weight it would give.  I know you didn't mention it, but at the risk of hijacking where you wanted to go on your post, have you considered the rubber donuts (hydrozorb??) as a third alternative?  JImChuk

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Posted

I will consider anything someone wants to use.  That's the good part about doing custom work, its tailored to the individuals wants or needs.  Once the basic jig is made just changing out the suspension strut is easy and only 4 bolts.  I was just trying to keep costs down as everyone seems to balk at spending money these days :lmao:  The tooling I am about to order is a substantial investment so I will be fabricating a lot more than airplane parts with it.  Roll cages, roof racks, wheeler racks boat hand rails etc.

:BC:

 

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Posted

Leni have you thought about a three point attachment to fuselage?

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Posted

That's a possibility.  I think its over kill if designed right, but adding the 3rd leg is not a big issue.

My plan right now is a 1 1/4" front leg and 1" rear leg with a couple braces in between.  I have also been drawing it up for 1.25" axles (cause that's what I an running and they don't bend) but I can easily make then for the bend prone .750" axles as well.  I have wheels and brakes for either set up, I just like the larger axles as chances are guys are looking at bigger tires etc.  If you get the matco wheels that are 1.25" axles and use the 27" desser tires then you should have about the cheapest most robust set up you could bolt on to these birds.  Of course, you could go with the TK1 gear and struts etc but I think that has its own set of issues as far as dinging the shock then loosing your air and having a flat strut.  That is harder to repair in the field than a bungee or spring.  Not to mention, the cost goes up quickly as well. 

I am trying to work off the K.I.S.S. and have a real gear that wont bend your bird under normal to heavy use but wont break the bank either.  Putting 7K worth of gear and wheels on a 10K bird seems kind of dumb to me :lol:

:BC:

 

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Posted (edited)

Before you get your jig all built maybe look into using something like this for tubing. I bought some for my balance weights. It was really nice stuff I think it would be great for landing gear legs. Just a thought.

https://www.wagaero.com/odd-size-strut-material-1.html

100_1146.JPG

Edited by TJay
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Posted (edited)

I am trying to work off the K.I.S.S. and have a real gear that wont bend your bird under normal to heavy use but wont break the bank either.  Putting 7K worth of gear and wheels on a 10K bird seems kind of dumb to me :lol:

:BC:

 

True so true.  How much extra weight over the original design are you thinking?  This is an important consideration to me as well. 

paul in VA

Edited by allonsye
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Posted

An idea I've had for a while is if the traditional Avid bungee landing gear could be improved without being replaced. I know many pilots really like the wider gear. I'm sure it is nice but I don't mind the narrow gear (and it fit very nicely on the trailer...). What I don't like is the un-damped bungees. The harder you land the higher you jump... 

What about "just" installing some kind on dampers?  Has anyone already tried this or had the same idea?
 

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Posted

I am trying to work off the K.I.S.S. and have a real gear that wont bend your bird under normal to heavy use but wont break the bank either.  Putting 7K worth of gear and wheels on a 10K bird seems kind of dumb to me :lol:

:BC:

 

True so true.  How much extra weight over the original design are you thinking?  This is an important consideration to me as well. 

paul in VA

Paul I have not yet added it all up.  I think weight gain will be minimal versus the stock Avid "wide" gear.  A couple pounds would be my guess.  I have a set of stock wide gear I can weigh and then I will weight this when I am done. 

The fun part about experimental stuff is that I can build a set of struts for the bungees and the springs and use on the same plane, same gear so I can test out what does what best.  The challenge to build a better mouse trap excites me more than hohum building parts on an assembly line :lol:

:BC:

TJ,  I looked at the streamline tubing.  Piper does this I know on the PA20 gear for the bungee strut but that is more of the stock Avid KF bungee style I am trying to get away from.  FWIW, I have repaired a few PA20 seat trusses for the exact same reason we have to repair them on the Avids and KF.  Hence most people that use the PA20 for off field work go with the supercub gear STC.  Glad we don't have to deal with STC's here!

:BC:

 

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Posted

An idea I've had for a while is if the traditional Avid bungee landing gear could be improved without being replaced. I know many pilots really like the wider gear. I'm sure it is nice but I don't mind the narrow gear (and it fit very nicely on the trailer...). What I don't like is the un-damped bungees. The harder you land the higher you jump... 

What about "just" installing some kind on dampers?  Has anyone already tried this or had the same idea?
 

fred,  this is my thinking of add automotive damper in avid, i've not plane here yet to see if possible , here my drawing idea :

loose bungees , bolt damperIMG_3130.thumb.JPG.3cbbc109610bdab7f1fd3

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Posted

Very interested in this thread. I would love a new set of gear for my plane. Following Closely!!

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Posted

That will be great Leni;  offering both spring and bungee is a great idea especially if it only require changing out the tension legs to go from one to the other so your build parts inventory stays mostly the same. (KISS)

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Posted

Hi Leni,

What does the final design look like.  Do you have a drawing? Picture? 

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Posted

An idea I've had for a while is if the traditional Avid bungee landing gear could be improved without being replaced. I know many pilots really like the wider gear. I'm sure it is nice but I don't mind the narrow gear (and it fit very nicely on the trailer...). What I don't like is the un-damped bungees. The harder you land the higher you jump... 

What about "just" installing some kind on dampers?  Has anyone already tried this or had the same idea?
 

I'm with you on this Fred.  The simpler the better.  I don't mind the narrow gear either but would love to have more dampning.  That said, I'm reminded of Newton's "3rd" law and I think it's directly applicable, For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.   I wish I had the skill sets to solve the problem.  Hat-tip to Leni for taking a crack at it.

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If you have something ready when I start putting my Avid back together later this year, I'll be very interested.  Something wider would be great!  I don't anticipate any tundra tires needed here in Florida though.

Mark

 

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Posted

An idea I've had for a while is if the traditional Avid bungee landing gear could be improved without being replaced. I know many pilots really like the wider gear. I'm sure it is nice but I don't mind the narrow gear (and it fit very nicely on the trailer...). What I don't like is the un-damped bungees. The harder you land the higher you jump... 

What about "just" installing some kind on dampers?  Has anyone already tried this or had the same idea?
 

I'm with you on this Fred.  The simpler the better.  I don't mind the narrow gear either but would love to have more dampning.  That said, I'm reminded of Newton's "3rd" law and I think it's directly applicable, For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.   I wish I had the skill sets to solve the problem.  Hat-tip to Leni for taking a crack at it.

I'm glad I learned to fly in a Cessna for just that reason.  That spring metal gear was really good at teaching me to land smoothly.  Now that I fly a Cherokee, that oleo gear makes landing a cinch.

Mark

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Posted

An idea I've had for a while is if the traditional Avid bungee landing gear could be improved without being replaced. I know many pilots really like the wider gear. I'm sure it is nice but I don't mind the narrow gear (and it fit very nicely on the trailer...). What I don't like is the un-damped bungees. The harder you land the higher you jump... 

What about "just" installing some kind on dampers?  Has anyone already tried this or had the same idea?
 

I'm with you on this Fred.  The simpler the better.  I don't mind the narrow gear either but would love to have more dampning.  That said, I'm reminded of Newton's "3rd" law and I think it's directly applicable, For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.   I wish I had the skill sets to solve the problem.  Hat-tip to Leni for taking a crack at it.

I'm glad I learned to fly in a Cessna for just that reason.  That spring metal gear was really good at teaching me to land smoothly.  Now that I fly a Cherokee, that oleo gear makes landing a cinch.

Mark

I learned in a Cherokee, put 450 hrs in it.  A very very solid airframe indeed.  That said, I seldom have a bad landing in the Mdl C/HH.

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Posted

And more thought goes into the gear design. 

While perusing parts on Aircraft Spruce I saw all the bolt on axles that Matco makes.  It would take a ton of jig work out of the equation if I built the gear to accept these bolt on axles then you can easily decide what wheels and axles you want to use.  1.25", 1.5" or .75".  For guys that want to go with big tires and are not wanting to be replacing axles all the time you can pick up a set of used clevelands or even new Matco wheels pretty cheap and have a complete bolt on upgrade for better braking power and axles that don't bend.

Your thoughts?

:BC:

 

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For that matter... for the guys that have 3/4" axles on the tube gear now it would be easy to put a flat plate on the end of your 3/4" axle you have now then bolt the new larger axles onto that plate.  A gusset or two and your in business pretty darn cheap.  The new gear would already come out with the plate welded in place so you could choose what size axle you want to bolt on.

:BC:

 

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Posted (edited)

And more thought goes into the gear design. 

While perusing parts on Aircraft Spruce I saw all the bolt on axles that Matco makes.  It would take a ton of jig work out of the equation if I built the gear to accept these bolt on axles then you can easily decide what wheels and axles you want to use.  1.25", 1.5" or .75".  For guys that want to go with big tires and are not wanting to be replacing axles all the time you can pick up a set of used clevelands or even new Matco wheels pretty cheap and have a complete bolt on upgrade for better braking power and axles that don't bend.

Your thoughts?

:BC:

 

Grove makes several sizes of bolt-on axles with different bolt patterns too - Not to mention that there are used Cessna, Piper and other bolt-on axles you can use with their wheels or others.  I totally agree that the original 3/4" axles are not going to last if you are heavy and bumping rocks, etc.  Isn't that is what Bush Gear is for?

BTW:  I have some new Kitfox 3/4" axles if someone needs them - may have a set of Cessna or Piper axles too - forget what size.   Check Kitfox prices and send me a PM.   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

And more thought goes into the gear design. 

While perusing parts on Aircraft Spruce I saw all the bolt on axles that Matco makes.  It would take a ton of jig work out of the equation if I built the gear to accept these bolt on axles then you can easily decide what wheels and axles you want to use.  1.25", 1.5" or .75".  For guys that want to go with big tires and are not wanting to be replacing axles all the time you can pick up a set of used clevelands or even new Matco wheels pretty cheap and have a complete bolt on upgrade for better braking power and axles that don't bend.

Your thoughts?

:BC:

 

Grove makes several sizes of bolt-on axles with different bolt patterns too - Not to mention that there are used Cessna, Piper and other bolt-on axles you can use with their wheels or Matco.  I totally agree that the original 3/4" axles are not going to last if you are heavy and bumping rocks, etc. 

BTW:  I have some new Kitfox 3/4" axles if someone needs them - may have a set of Cessna or Piper axles too - forget what size.   Check Kitfox prices and send me a PM.   EDMO

Grove gets theirs from Matco.  So does Rans.  I talked with the folks at Matco today about the axles.  Of course, they don't make the various axle sizes with the same bolt pattern so little adapter plates would be needed for anyone wanting the bolt on 3/4" axles.  Can use the same bolt pattern for 1.25" and 1.5"

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Posted (edited)

And more thought goes into the gear design. 

While perusing parts on Aircraft Spruce I saw all the bolt on axles that Matco makes.  It would take a ton of jig work out of the equation if I built the gear to accept these bolt on axles then you can easily decide what wheels and axles you want to use.  1.25", 1.5" or .75".  For guys that want to go with big tires and are not wanting to be replacing axles all the time you can pick up a set of used clevelands or even new Matco wheels pretty cheap and have a complete bolt on upgrade for better braking power and axles that don't bend.

Your thoughts?

:BC:

 

Grove makes several sizes of bolt-on axles with different bolt patterns too - Not to mention that there are used Cessna, Piper and other bolt-on axles you can use with their wheels or Matco.  I totally agree that the original 3/4" axles are not going to last if you are heavy and bumping rocks, etc. 

BTW:  I have some new Kitfox 3/4" axles if someone needs them - may have a set of Cessna or Piper axles too - forget what size.   Check Kitfox prices and send me a PM.   EDMO

Grove gets theirs from Matco.  So does Rans.  I talked with the folks at Matco today about the axles.  Of course, they don't make the various axle sizes with the same bolt pattern so little adapter plates would be needed for anyone wanting the bolt on 3/4" axles.  Can use the same bolt pattern for 1.25" and 1.5"

Yes, you can get 1.25 and 1.5 with the same bolt pattern - But those size axles on factory planes may have different bolt patterns - usually the 1.25 (Cessna?) are a square pattern, and the 1.5 (Piper?) are a rectangular pattern.   I have had both patterns.   Check Grove catalog for patterns they sell.   Should be simple to make mounting plates with no holes and let the buyer drill them to match their axles if they choose to do that?   EDMO

Edited by EDMO

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Posted

Matco has them all Ed, they are who supplies Grove with the axles.  Got it figured out on what patterns are usable and what I can do to make the 3/4" bolt on as well. 

:BC:

 

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Posted

Glad you got it all figured out Leni.   EDMO

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Posted

   Hi ak 

     more than likely I’ll need gear for a magnum, taller ,wider , rubber puck ,in your opinion is 1.25 in. Good for the 1750# 

mto magnum 

thx rjg 

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